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Short Monday Roundup — Opine The Issues Of The Day Catching My Eye Or Opine And Share Your Own Concerns…
Yep, it’s been a week or two since the last time I’ve published one of these quick hit roundups where you, the reader has every opportunity to submit and share something even MORE important to YOU in the comments section below.
In the past when we’ve done this, more often than not, it makes for a rather interesting and civil discussion over many of our current events and the politicians behind them. My hope is today will be no exception.
So, with no further adieu, here are the two issues of the day catching my eye and a few quick comments on them from MOI…
Guess what? While many on the “right” are popping the champaign corks because of President Obama’s falling popularity numbers, they might want to put the cork back because Gallup has polled 160,000 American Citizens throughout the fifty states and guess how many “Red” states there are? If you said ONLY FOUR, you got it exactly right. Shocked? Amazed? Awed? Me, too.
One more thing before I turn the rest of this column over to YOU — how about those “birthers” — the folks who continue to amaze even their fellow conservatives by demanding to see live footage of President Obama’s birth along with the cutting of his umbilical cord by a knife with the Great State Of Hawaii’s state emblem burnt into it. Yeah, I know it’s a bit on the “sick” side but there are apparently GOBS of folks out there on the “right” who would love nothing more than to see something this twisted and the “righty” bloggers are baiting them in a desparate effort to hold onto their visitation stats. The Village Voice has a roundup of some of these hypocritical panderers (remember, I readily admit I, too, am a hypocrite sometimes so all is fair)…
Now, YOUR turn. O-PINE, please and oh, let’s be civil and have fun while we’re at it.
***
CASINO NIGHT! Place your bets:
Health care bill
Big Massive Sweeping change gets passed: 1 to 3 odds
Completely fails to pass” : 1 to 20 odds
Big Bill without really much teeth : 1 to 1 odds
Tiny bill so losing side can claim victory: 1 to 4 odds
Cap and Tax bill
Big Massive Change gets passed : 1 to 40 odds
Completely fails to pass : 1 to 1.5 odds
Big bill without much teeth : 1 to 8 odds
Tiny “moral victory” bill : 1 to 1 odds
National Average today on price of a gallon of gas is $2.549 http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/ On October 1st of this year, this same site will report it as:
Higher: 1.5 to win 1
Lower: 1 wins 1.3
Over 3 per gallon 1 wins 1.2
Under 2.1 per gallon 1 wins 1.9
**NOTE THIS IS NOT A GAMBLING SITE AND POSTED ODDS ARE ONLY FOR THE AMUSEMENT OF THE READERS** PLEASE TRANSMIT ALL WAGERS THROUGH THE DONATE TO GTL link who will keep them all regardless of the outcome.
Hell, Guns. It is like with the Niners. When they win, everyone is a Niners fan. Let them drop three and a row, can’t find a one.
You want something of REAL importance, what do you think of Melissa rather hand Jeffrey winning Next Food Network Star?
Or, for you amusement:
http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20090801/APC0101/908010535/1979
It should be a straight news story of a crime.
CHILTON — Four Fox Valley women face felony charges in connection with the ambush-style assault of a Fond du Lac man whom they say had many too many affairs.
The women are accused of attacking the man Thursday at a Stockbridge motel, where he was lured by the offer of a rubdown from one of the women.
The man voluntarily submitted to being bound and blindfolded by one of the women..
OK, that kind of makes it comedy.
THEN -
She then cut off his underwear with a scissor and summoned the other women to the room with a text message.
When they arrived, Ziemann struck the man in the face and glued his penis to his stomach.
Kind of moves it to moonbat status in my humble opinion. Or maybe his actions do.
AND FOR FROSTING ON THE CAKE -
Bail for each was set at $200 cash,
Two hundred bucks?!?!!
I guess the judge thought he had it coming.
I just looked over the list of states: Dem/Repub/competative -They have Texas as competative, oh that is funny! I guess because so many Texans voted for that “liberal” McCain in the general election it must be competative! Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson is challenging Governor Rick Perry for the Governor’s seat next year. Sen. Hutchinson is pretty solid right by Washington D.C. standards but here in Texas she is seen the moderate choice against hard line right wing Perry. Heck, not only does Texas have a balanced budget and no debt, it has a 6.7 billion dollar reserve fund if we were to ever fall short. You think Texas is going to vote in some run the economy into the ground like California did liberal? Oh, excuse me, perhaps a hard line conservative democrate, like….who?
@Mike300: Yes, Texas is truly a marvel. A true paradise of free market values. No wonder Perry talks treason–while the nation is at war (so much for the Republicans bragging about how patriotic they are every chance they get)–by saying he wants the state to secede.
But wait … Oh right. I forgot. It’s also a hellhole compared to other states:
http://www.purewatergazette.net/bbtexas.htm
Texas should serve as a warning to other states that would serve big business instead of its people’s needs. California should serve as a warning to states that impose bizarre limits on government’s ability to tax its citizens, and throwing out a competent governor in favor of another right wing Hollywood actor.
Go Perry! Secede. PLEASE.
Thanks for bringing this up, Mike!
“Texas should serve as a warning to other states that would serve big business instead of its people’s needs. California should serve as a warning to states that impose bizarre limits on government’s ability to tax its citizens, and throwing out a competent governor in favor of another right wing Hollywood actor.”
I suppose it’s terrible of me to make my second comment here about picking a fight with another liberal… especially when I agree with the bulk of the quoted statement. I run a very small call center business and one of the items I contract to sell is a book about taking advantage of government welfare programs… and the vast majority of my customers are in ‘red’ states in the South. Texas being the single biggest source of calls. So, yes, definite poster child for the danger of making corporations the chief constituency of the government.
I also agree (as a California native who wishes, frequently, he was still a California resident) that California’s combination of incredibly strict procedural regulations about passing tax bills or budgets and far too loose rules about legislating by direct ballot is insane. One can pass an expensive law by ballot and borrow the money to pay for it by ballot, but one needs to meet a tremendously strict quorum and majority requirement to pay the debt. That’s kind of stupid.
IMO the recall election was stupid too, especially since the big issue at stake was Gov. Gray Davis’s inability to pass a budget because of hardline conservative opposition in the state legislature. This is exactly Arnold’s problem now (and to be fair it was the problem of every liberal-to-moderate governor of California EVER) and they aren’t recalling him because there is no celebrity right winger Californians would vote for and Democrats always seem to have a suicidal sense of ‘fair play’ and ‘cooperative government’ that Republicans don’t share. Like them or hate them, Republicans understand that governing a republic is done by elected officials and not direct consensus democracy. Democrats really need to learn that lesson.
Anyway, Schwarzenegger is as much a ‘right winger’ as Obama is a ‘left winger’, which is to say only so far as it gets him votes. They are both pragmatic conservatives on the center-right who understand the political desires of their parties’ base but do not let it get in the way of governing as they see fit. Schwarzenegger was harshly criticized Republicans for using Warren Buffet (a marginally liberal New Democrat of the Clinton stamp) as an economic adviser during his campaign and again as governor. Obama is taking (rightly) a lot of heat from liberals for not pushing for more meaningful health care reform. In both cases, they are working on what they believe to be the most pragmatic set of options available.
I will even say that considering his lack of experience and preparation for the role, and his lack of real qualifications for the non-media related aspects of the job, Arnold has been a much better governor than anyone had a right to expect. He’s certainly been a far better and far more thoughtful governor of California than the /last/ entirely unprepared, inexperienced, and ill-qualified Republican to be elected to the job. And better than the last two allegedly qualified Republicans since. Which may be damning with faint praise, but it’s still important to be honest.
GTL
I see the “Birther” goobers as simply the cosmic forces trying to balance the “Truther” goobers. That or simply the statistical fact that a certain percentage of any faction are functionally retarded.
@Joe — YOUCH!!! LMFAO @ $200.00 bail, too!!!
@Chuck — I’m with you 100% on that one, bro
Re: California vs Texas
“California should serve as a warning to states that impose bizarre limits on government’s ability to tax its citizens”
In 2007, CNN Money ranked California as 12th in the nation on tax burden as a percentage of income (I was shocked they were that low, but I’ve only lived in east coast states so I didn’t really know – my kwowledge coming only from transplants). Based on that, I would not think California has a huge problem figuring out how to tax its citizens – they seem to be doing ok at #12! Could it be that they have a spending problem?
Mike 300,
Always fun to speculate. I can’t argue with your odds too much.
I think gas prices will slowly trend upward, but not a huge amount. The economy is going to recover very slowly, so demand will not increase that fast. However, the supply will dwindle a bit as they manage inventory better. When gas prices are low, companies are hesitant to commit to developing new fields (leasing platforms and such equipment), especially the expensive stuff at sea – so in the end, prices will go up some eventually. Off course, all bets are off if we get a hurricane to hit in the right place!
I love Texas, that being said, I really don’t consider myself a Texan. It might also surprize you that despite not having any state income tax, it is not one of the bottom few in taxes, I don’t know where they are but it is pretty much middle of the road. The thing is with a sales tax, it is PAY AS YOU GO! What a concept! No long forms to confuse the honest or allow the cheats to distort or skip. I’d love to talk about the issue of Texas option to secede. Especially people who value the freedom of contract so much. You know, contract to marry whomever, same gender, contract to secede. My understanding, and feel free to mock me if I’m wrong as I just have a short work break to write, but I believe Sam Houston, not only got the right to seceed in the contract of Texas joining the U.S. but Texas is the only state to have extended water rights off it’s coast as far out as it does. (Again, I don’t know the distance and don’t have time at the moment to research as I should).
I wasn’t born in Texas but I got here as quick as I could! :0
Mike
As a graduate of Leander HS in Leander Texas, should Texas vote to secede I would move back as fast as my governed Ryder truck would go. The only thing better would be if Texas’ largest county (Oklahoma) would go with it.
And BTW Mike, give me the odds on the Israeli’s blowing up Iran’s nuclear erector set. That will determine which of the gasoline price odds I’ll take.
Chuck- I didn’t have odds on that so I had to consult the bookie. She claims to have it on good authority that the Isreali Mossad has already tampered with the guidance system of Iran’s delivery device. That coupled with Isreals desire avoid any distractions to the Iranians squabbling with themselves, the bookie has authorized me to offer you 27 to 1 payoff that there will be no air strikes by Isreal on Iran prior to 1 October 2009.
To pre-empt some natural follow up questions, the Israelis expect any launch by Iran to impact in a pistachio grove near the Shat al arab water way. The bookie has already pulled the future price of pistachio wagering off the board, but you might be able to leverage a buy in the commodities market.
Reference Texas being a hell hole, tough to argue with that looking at its not so pretty terrain. Always hot as blazes. Yet without the lush agriculture of California or vice driven profits of Nevada, it maintains economic strength despite the waves of impoverished immigrants it deals with from a government that doesn’t do one of its fundemental jobs of securing the border. No, the federal government doesn’t have enough time or money for that, it is too busy giving away money to unions, rewarding pharmacutical bribers (yes, I’m talking about republicans in addition to some democrats) and trying to run every private business it can get its grubby hands on. It can’t be bothered with such trival matters of securing the border with Mexico.
Hey GTL
The Whitehouse seems to be asking for folks to rat out Healthcare dissenters. I know you are all about these kind of Big Brother tactics… would you like, rat me out please? It will do wonders for my street cred and make our President happy at the same time.
Here’s the link, look about halfway down for paragraph about ratting out dissenters.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/
All I can say is it’s a darn good thing the Left is all about free speech and all. I shudder to think what would have happened if President Bush had done somethinglike this.
Here’s the paragraph you’re looking for:
There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.
Texas should serve as a warning to other states that would serve big business instead of its people’s needs. California should serve as a warning to states that impose bizarre limits on government’s ability to tax its citizens, and throwing out a competent governor in favor of another right wing Hollywood actor.
DAWG
Listening to you talk is music to my ears. If people actually read what you write….well they will most certainly send you over to help the wimmin folk wash the clothes while the real men gather around the campfire, eat the pig and tell war stories while drinking beer.
You can go over to the wimmin folk and grumble about new and more inventive ways to get more beer and eat more of OUR pig.
All state be warned! Do not promote big business in your states while neglecting a government’s primary job of providing Free everything for its residents. The aweful repercussions of such missmanagement is LOWER than national average unemployment and housing prices Rising!http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/34299356?graph%5Blimit%5D=10&limit_modifier=all&graph%5Blimit%5D=51&commit=%3E
Don’t let this happen to your state! People will start believing they’ll have to work for a living rather than the government just handing them their food, housing, health care, and cash for their clunkers.
@Chuck!!! LMFAO!!! Yeah, I saw that but I was gonna give you and FandB a chance to turn yourselves in before I took the initiative, bro
@Doomed: I’m glad my writings are music to your ears. Yours sound like pigs being slaughtered before being chowed down by overweight, alcoholic, ignorant red staters with a laughable, massively inflated opinion of their own manhood. While I enjoy laughing in your face when you say the usual “Look how macho I am” crap espoused by you and all the other self-hating gays in the Republican Party, my advice is to stop embarrassing yourself.
Is that a civil enough response for your lame attempt at personally insulting me, tough guy?
@Chuck: THIS is your idea of Orwell’s 1984 realized? LMAO! Man, you right wingers are desperate.
“There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.”
@Chuck: BTW, Oklahoma is part of the deal. Take it. PLEASE. And don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
I’ll pay your bus ticket, and wish you luck building your mighty nation!
@Mike: I agree the U.S. government has done a lousy job securing the border with Mexico. Taking a perhaps cynical view of things, the Right wants cheap, no-rights labor for Big Business while the Left wants to keep Hispanic voters happy. Killing them isn’t the answer though, would you agree?
The fact remains, despite Texas “economic strength,” it is one of least desirable states to live in the United States looking a broad range of criteria. A true testament to the state’s right wing policies. It’s the “People come second” state.
@Mike, thanks for publishing this link to a graph showing recent changes in home prices by state:
http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/34299356?graph%5Blimit%5D=10&limit_modifier=all&graph%5Blimit%5D=51&commit=%3E
The funny thing is it makes the opposite argument than how you’re interpreting it. The biggest drops in home prices are in the blue states because the housing bubbles were largest there. Housing prices skyrocketed in these states, peaking in 2006, and have plunged since due to the Bush Collapse. Otherwise, you really don’t want to be making the argument you’re making. It’s a fact, supported by all economic data, that the blue states are generally more productive and richer than the red states. And the United States itself, which is encumbered by all these socialist policies you believe lead to ruin, is still the world’s largest economy. How about that.
When I was living in Africa, a friend gave me a bottle of milk to drink out of a refrigerator once. I tasted it, it tasted like sour cream and had lumps in it. I embarassingly reported to my friend that his gift to me was spoiled. He tried it and concluded the opposite. I can see what you mean about the places that have had the biggest drops indicate both past wealth and gains, and even in decline, I’m sure houses in L.A. sell for more than Minot North Dakota. I just think in this one case, things that you might dislike about a state, I might find appealing. I’m not sure what you meant by: “killing them isn’t the answer” Are you talking about border security? Reference to people dying while crossing the boarder? The gang and drug fight killing that is plaguing some parts of Mexican border town with an inference to making drugs legal to reduce the crime? I’m not arguing, I just really don’t know what you meant by that comment.
Regardless if you are Bubba Smith selling boiled peanuts off a lightly travelled road or MC. Hammer making millions in show biz. Basic economic pricipals remain the same. If you continuously, over time, earn more than you spend, your wealth will increase. If you do the opposite your wealth will decrease. I don’t trust the Democrats to stay within their means running the government, nor do I trust the Republicans to stay with their means either. They have both proven they don’t. That is why I oppose every government growth bill, health care, cap and tax, stimulus, all of it. If in, oh 20 to 300 years from now the national debt is eliminated and it has a national surplus…LIKE TEXAS DOES….hey, I’d vote for bread and circuses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses for everyone!
@Mike300: I was referring to the slaughter of a Hispanic family recently by some Minutemen who thought they were illegals. I don’t see it as a Right/Left thing.
Note however I’m not against the Minutemen, even if some of them are racist. I believe if the government refuses to do its job securing the border, citizens have a right to do so, as long as they cooperate with authorities and don’t use force.
Regarding people having their individual preferences about where to live, I would have to agree with that. Each state has its own character. But some states invest in their people’s welfare, and some don’t, and those that don’t tend to rank lower in desirable qualities. This to me, on top of the evident the U.S. itself offers, shows that a regulated economy–capitalism but with government intervention, safety net and regulation–is superior to all other economic systems.
@Mike300: Regarding your comment 29, I agree government should spend within its means, but take exception during recessions. As a good Keynesian, I believe that is the exact wrong time to cut back on government spending to maintain a balanced budget as tax revenues decline, as it can worsen the economy and prolong/deepen the recession. In fact, government should spend more to boost the economy. FandB has mentioned that monetary policies can inflate the money supply. In ordinary times, this might work, but these are not ordinary times. This is why I support the stimulus, as a necessary evil. Hey, at least we’re going to get some things we can use.
Awhile back I posted the story line of a cartoon I remember in highschool, perhaps around 81/82. I’ll re-write it for you B.D. – 1.Reagan on a ship called “the economy” heading towards a waterfall, saying “Stay the course!” 2.Then going down over the falls still yelling: “Stay the course!” 3. Ship has hit the bottom and is all busted up and Reagan says: “Damn Democrats!” well, watch Obama re-create that cartoon today with the punch line: “Damn Republicans!” Anyway, we all know the truth, so I’ll just say it: It is all Clinton’s fault!
Obama won’t say “Damn Republicans!” Even when he should. He’s too NICE. He really wants you Righties to like him. I know, I know. I don’t get it either. [shakes fist at sky and roars with William Shatner voice] Clin-TONNNNNNNN!
Time for my normal American day to end, at almost 3:00 am, I’ve got some busy signals I need to call on the phone tommorrow up in the D.C. area.
Is that a civil enough response for your lame attempt at personally insulting me, tough guy?
No could you be more specific?
“Government should spend within their means except during recessions.” Ok, in a world where government has consistantly saved money for a rainy day and has reserve funds, hit a recession, start spending more. Great, there is some common ground for you. But if you have a “bad behavior” government that always spends more than it makes, the correction of the bad behavior is paramount in my opinion. One might give heroin to ease the pain of someone who had their leg blown off, but if you have a dope addict you don’t give them heroin to cure a headache. Taking prudent risks is one thing, but you don’t help a gambling addict out of his/her financial problems by giving them lottery tickets. Even if they end up with a winning ticket and they can wipe all their losses away, if you haven’t fixed their behavior, they will just end up broke again. The behavior of congress needs to be changed even more than shedding a percentage point off the unemployement numbers or boosting the stock market prices of bailed out businesses.
Mike,
I think the Health Care Sweeping change odds should go up to 1 in 5. Lots of issues are slicing and dicing the coalitions here.
For instance, the HMO’s love the idea of forcing people to get insurance, especially younger folks who rarely get sick. Of course, the same opposes the govt competition. Lots of these types of conflicting issues with the bill(s).
Now the abortion issue has come up. I think there are still quite a few folks who desire to minimize (or eliminate) the amount of their tax dollars funding abortions – even among those who want to get health care reform passed. My initial thought is that you will lose more moderates with abortion in there. Figure the social liberals will stick with the bill even if the abortion is out…not sure of the numbers though, just speculating here on GTL’s free-for-all thread.
Steve
“FandB has mentioned that monetary policies can inflate the money supply. In ordinary times, this might work, but these are not ordinary times.” — Agreed, these are not ordinary times. My comment came up in a discussion related to breaking a “liquidity trap”. It seems that the area in which we disagree is Who should get and spend the extra cash the government prints. I believe the money should go directly to the people, and liberals would tend to believe the government should decide where to spend the money. The tough part for most to accept is that there has to be enough money printed and spent to raise inflation into a 4-4.5% range, and interest rates have to be allowed to rise accordingly, to about 6%. IMO, this is where our economy operates best.
Found this on another site. I think it is pretty good.
Now, the attribution at the end may be off. So be it, the essence of it holds true.
A German’s View on Islam
A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. ‘Very few people were true Nazis,’ he said, ‘but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.’
We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.
The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the ‘silent majority,’ is cowed and extraneous.
Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were ‘peace loving’?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts–the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it, and send it on – before it’s too late.
Emanuel Tanay, M.D. 2980 Provincial St. Ann Arbor, MI 48104 734-997-0256
==============================================================================================================================
But it may have come from here: http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2006/02/why-peaceful-majority-is-irrelevant.html
(good quote on cjunk: “But then, there is the “progressive” class … that aimless mass of Western humanity so burdened by cultural self-loathing that it is to Islam, as ungulates are to lions.”)
And you also find it here: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/6996
“It’s a fact, supported by all economic data, that the blue states are generally more productive and richer than the red states. And the United States itself, which is encumbered by all these socialist policies you believe lead to ruin, is still the world’s largest economy. How about that.” — The problem with the interpretation here is what I mentioned before; confusing correlation with causality – a very common mistake made when trying to interpret statistical data. Richer states have tended to attract a larger percentage of (to be P.I. as in Politically Incorrect) ‘welfare cases’. And as I have mentioned before also; When you rob from Peter to pay Paul, you can always get Paul to vote for you. Over the past few decades, states such as Illinois for example, Obama’a (and my) current home state, have a large democrat voting base located in the main metro areas (e.g. Chicago, Aurora, Rockford) while most of the money making is now concentrated outside of those areas. So the state, which is clearly Blue, has an economy that is controlled primarily by the conservative Suburban and down-state regions, but a political leaning that is controlled by the large metro areas.
Illinois, however, is watching its revenue base quickly erode. The dem’s are voting for higher and higher taxes, and businesses (and wealthy people) are moving out in record numbers. So, given time, Illinois will become one of the poorer states, and the ‘welfare cases’ will move again to a wealthier state. This might continue to allow you to find ‘research’ or ‘statistics’ that support your position, but does little to correct the root cause of the problem. Another approach might be to form your opinion based on research, rather than the other way around
@Joe — very, VERY interesting post, that one. I truly disagree with the claim that peaceful Muslims are our enemies because of their apathy however. I have a pretty good handful of Muslim friends from the Middle East (American Citizens, all of them) and you could not meet nicer folks. Most of them like to party hearty and I don’t think any of them have walked into a mosque in years but they still cling to their faith versus religious ceremony. One of my good Muslim friends goes out of his way over beers to proclaim the importance for everybody to “believe in a higher power” — interesting guy and the rest of them are every bit as interesting.
No, Sir — these guys are NOT my “enemy”. They’ve got my back and I’ve got theirs
Guns, honestly that piece has me split. I hear what you are saying – that right now they are not. And I would go further to argue that those here in the US are not and likely will never be. Just as a lot of the bible thumping xtian fundies are not and will never be the enemy.
But as was pointed out “Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.”
I’m sure that before 1933 a lot of Jews in Germany and Austria thought that their good, staunch, stolid, neighbors were great people who liked to party and have a few beers. And those good German neighbors thought the Jews were pretty good folks too. Until by their silence those good Germans found themselves under a brutal government who proclaimed that those Jews who they had been quaffing cold ones with the week before were enemies of the State and needed to find freedom through work.
BUT, I think all of us are also somewhat guilty of that same silence. We the People fail over and over in our civic duty to stand up and say WAIT!!! What about the Constitution? WHERE THE HELL do you get the authority to do THAT?
@Doomed: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
@Mike300, who says: OK, in a world where government has consistantly saved money for a rainy day and has reserve funds, hit a recession, start spending more.”
Spoken like a true Keynesian! You’re almost a Democrat already, Mike. In fact, the country you’re describing is Canada. The Liberal government, which ran the country from the mid 90s to 2006, posted seven years of a balanced budget (while paying down the debt significantly), then the Conservatives won and did the same for two years, and now the Conservatives have a big deficit because the country needs a splurge to reduce the size/length of the recession.
The rest of your post is also entirely correct. Unfortunately, there’s no way to punish the heroin addict. If you don’t like the black cats being in charge of us mice, you can vote for the white cats, but they’re all cats. If we were to rise up and put a stop to the stimulus spending and all aid to banks, we’d likely be in a full-fledged Depression, say economists, and I don’t know about you, but I have a business to run and mouths to feed.
F&B
Along those lines I always wondered why the Democratic Party championed the idea of reform for the Alternative Minimum Tax. On the surface the AMT simply looked like a way for a rich guy with a good accountant and tax lawyer to skip out on paying his taxes, not exactly what you would expect the Democratic party to get in a bother about. Upon further review, I discovered that the main thing bringing more and more upper-middle class folks under the AMT was the fact that they made about $250,000/year and lived in high tax states, like California and New York. The relatively high state income tax deduction was pushing these folks into AMT territory. The Democratic Party clearly understood that without protection at the Federal level for these folks, there would be a major uprising against state spending. That would have exacerbated the state fiscal crisis much earlier than what we have seen.
@FandB, who says, “It seems that the area in which we disagree is Who should get and spend the extra cash the government prints. I believe the money should go directly to the people, and liberals would tend to believe the government should decide where to spend the money.”
The government is owned by the public and operated by its elected representatives, but besides, how does your money go “directly to the people”? The Fed doesn’t mail checks, it distributes credit to the banks with resulting debt (it’s a helluva complicated system). The banks are sitting on the money and besides that they’re “taxing” it by skimming money off the top to keep their failed businesses operating and also to distribute new bonuses.
“The tough part for most to accept is that there has to be enough money printed and spent to raise inflation into a 4-4.5% range, and interest rates have to be allowed to rise accordingly, to about 6%. IMO, this is where our economy operates best.”
Where will this money come from? We have two options: 1) we can sell more debt to foreign nations and further compromise our sovereignty, or 2) we can cut down trees, convert them into paper, and call it money. It’s bad enough we have to borrow what we are for the Stimulus and to flush down the banks. You’re talking a HUGE amount of money in a $13 trillion economy to go from an interest rate that should be about -5% to +5%.
“The problem with the interpretation here is what I mentioned before; confusing correlation with causality – a very common mistake made when trying to interpret statistical data.”
Unless somebody does a study specifically designed to answer the exact research question you have, which is expensive and rare, all you have is interpretation of raw numbers and sometimes that means finding and reporting interesting correlations. That’s life, man. Texas spends little on its people’s welfare, making it a Republican paradise. Texas ranks among the highest in many poor attributes and lowest in many desirable attributes. That’s a hell of a correlation. You make a fair point, but no, I feel safe making the interpretation that Texas is a crappy state to live, and that this is based on its policies.
You put money in the hands of the people primarily through tax rebates and tax cuts.
You don’t HAVE to sell debt in order to print money. You just print the money, that will stimulate some inflation and force interest rates up. A few hundred billion will get things rolling.
I know it’s fun to bash the whole “bonus” thing, but in reality, the bonuses (just like the costs to pay for Mrs. Obama’s entourage that people are talking about now) are a tiny fraction of a drop in the bucket.
As for ‘failed’ businesses… Let them fail. Sometimes when you’re sick you have to swallow a bitter pill to get better.
Last, I wasn’t talking about Texas, I was addressing the generalization that richer states are blue states. My example was to illustrate the fallacy of confusing correlation (wealthy state is blue) with causality (wealth comes from predominantly conservative areas of the state, political leaning comes from poorer metro areas).
“Obama won’t say “Damn Republicans!” Even when he should. He’s too NICE. He really wants you Righties to like him. I know, I know. I don’t get it either. [shakes fist at sky and roars with William Shatner voice] Clin-TONNNNNNNN!”
OK, OK. That did make me chuckle. A little. Maybe there are some lefties who have a sense of humor. Is it also possible that some ACORN members and Obama-bots are also actually… human???
…
Nah.
This whole Obama thing would be a lot easier to take if he were a U.S. Citizen.
Oops.
F&B said:
“You don’t HAVE to sell debt in order to print money. You just print the money,…”
Rather incorrect my friend, but I withhold further comment for the short term.
@ SJ – As far as adjusting the odds, I did read your info, but please note, I’m posting “conservative” odds – You could have a massively scaled down bill,then a last minute 800 page addition come in, that of course has no connection with health care but still gets passed anyway. They could throw an extra 100 billion for tinker toys or throw in a provision that in the interest of public health, 50,000 new government employees will inspect people’s private residences for health care compliance. Never know with these knuckle heads what they will vote for without knowing or caring what they are doing.
@Mike300: Such is democracy. It’s like Churchill said: Law making is like sausage making; you don’t want to know what goes into it.
@FandB, who says, “You put money in the hands of the people primarily through tax rebates and tax cuts.”
Been there, tried that, over the last eight years, multiple times, and it didn’t deliver. From stimulus checks for everyone (Democrats) to tax cuts for rich people (Republicans), it didn’t work. So no thanks. Fool you five times, what does that make you? More economics needed, less Kool Aid.
“You don’t HAVE to sell debt in order to print money. You just print the money, that will stimulate some inflation and force interest rates up. A few hundred billion will get things rolling.”
The Fed already tried this, creating $2 trillion (going by memory) and using it to buy up toxic assets from the banks, hoping it would ensure liquidity. It didn’t.
“I know it’s fun to bash the whole “bonus” thing, but in reality, the bonuses (just like the costs to pay for Mrs. Obama’s entourage that people are talking about now) are a tiny fraction of a drop in the bucket.”
What the topic has to do with Ms. Obama, I have no idea. Try to stay on topic. Notice how I can string together a few sentences without calling Bush the Worst President Ever? (oops) Putting that little nonsensical but emotionally charged right wing propaganda item aside (with the other dung), let’s get back to the bonuses. Now surely you are outraged they would receive bonuses. After all, they essentially destroyed their businesses, and therefore should receive no bonuses, correct?
“As for ‘failed’ businesses… Let them fail. Sometimes when you’re sick you have to swallow a bitter pill to get better.”
That’s very easy for you to say. Untold misery may seem like a great idea as long as it’s not happening to you, but if it’s happening to tens of millions of Americans, then it’s a national issue and the nation has an interest in addressing it. Just like when the government violates the Constitution by arresting only some people without charge indefinitely–but not you or your friends–it’s still a violation of the Bill of Rights.
“Last, I wasn’t talking about Texas, I was addressing the generalization that richer states are blue states. My example was to illustrate the fallacy of confusing correlation (wealthy state is blue) with causality (wealth comes from predominantly conservative areas of the state, political leaning comes from poorer metro areas).”
So you’re saying that in every or at least most blue states, most of the wealth is being generated in its “red” regions. That’s ridiculous on its face. It may be true that older industrial centers have been in decline for years due to poorly conceived Neoliberal (free market) policies that have resulted in a long, painful death of our traditional manufacturing base–while most gains in GDP over the past decade went almost entirely to capital, not labor, resulting in shrinking of the middle class). And cities tend to vote Democrat. But a blue state is a blue state, period. It has blue state voters with blue state policies. And that’s what we’re talking about. Not people, but policies. Blue states, for their commie policies, tend to rank higher than red states in many economic and quality-of-life attributes. You’ll need to find a better explanation. I’d like to hear it. Similarly, I’d like to hear why the U.S. has been the world’s leading economic superpower for the last 60 years, with an economy topping $13 trillion, when it enacted a strong progressive agenda for most of it? Gee, I wonder how you sleep at night knowing the local fire department is a bunch of commies.
@Chuck, who says: “I see the “Birther” goobers as simply the cosmic forces trying to balance the “Truther” goobers. That or simply the statistical fact that a certain percentage of any faction are functionally retarded.”
A poll found that 28% of Republicans believe Obama was not born in the U.S., so I guess that would make nearly one out of every three Republicans functionally retarded–something I’ve suspected for years.
Regarding the money supply issue, I will wait for Chuck’s response before going into any greater detail. The comments from Baddog, however, address something other than what I wrote. My ‘recommendation’ has not been done. And maybe it shouldn’t, it would be difficult to control, and would amount to a couple thousand dollars or so per family. I am thinking that the amount of money created over the last 10, 15, maybe 20 years under the current system by the Fed and in response to the normal fiat monetary system methods of money creation was too low. Somehow the transactions were valued lower than they should have been. The result, among other things, was an inflation rate that was too low. We need to print more money now to catch up, so to speak
The bonuses don’t bother me any more than spending over a million a year for Mrs. Obama’s personal staff. Besides, Obama, Geitner, et. al. approved the bonuses before they were paid. Further evidence that Obama is the worst President ever, oops.
Regarding businesses failing… you just embarrassed yourself on that one, I won’t add to it.
Again, re-read it. I was talking about Illinois. “It may be true that older industrial centers have been in decline for years due to poorly conceived Neoliberal (free market) policies” — actually, in Illinois, the death of industry is coming about as a result of excessive taxation and regulation by a democrat party that has been in control way too long. This is the party from which Obama learned his ‘politics’.
“a blue state is a blue state, period. It has blue state voters with blue state policies. And that’s what we’re talking about. Not people, but policies.” — this may correlate, but if you ignore the true causes, it will be a temporary situation, the tax base will erode, businesses will leave, etc. Democrat policies might produce some short term political gains but lack long term sustainability.
“the U.S. has been the world’s leading economic superpower for the last 60 years, with an economy topping $13 trillion, when it enacted a strong progressive agenda for most of it?” — 60 years, that would be since 1949… Since then we have had 6 democrat and 6 Republican Presidents. The dems were ‘in’ for 24 of those years, republicans were ‘in’ for 36 years. Must have been some progressive republicans, eh?
I sleep very well, thank you for your ‘concern’.
And for a taste of health care you can belive in, look to Oregon:
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2009/08/no_to_chemo_yes.html
Sick and can;t work? No problem, we have just the pill for you.
@FandB: I somehow just knew the bonuses to the fat cat executives who crashed the economy wouldn’t bother you, and that you would use the question as a lame excuse to bring up the lame talking point that Ms. Obama has a staff, just as all first ladies do (but now this suddenly bothers you). Cue more scary organ music and strident outrage from We The People: blah blah blah. I can’t believe you can actually endlessly repeat these same nonsensical talking points over and over and over and over without exhausting yourself. It’s like you’re a bot. Is this a Turing test? I guess that part of the conversation is over. You have a house slave mentality about capitalists and rich people, and resent every single particle the Obamas breathe as somehow being sucked out of your own lungs. I get it. Your rage is impressive. We The People will rise up, etc. etc.
It’s also called the Democratic Party, not the Democrat Party, but you knew that, it’s part of the GOP’s childish strategy to … do something by refusing to call their adversaries by their actual name. The Republican’t Party might try to learn a little class one of these days while it’s busy teabagging and sandbagging instead of helping to run the government. But of course you use this language, as it’s a … get ready for it … talking point.
But back to the conversation, if you’re actually willing to have one instead of reciting what I hear through the echo chamber on a nonstop basis from everywhere else whether I want to hear it or not. Illinois is a blue state. It has a government led by Democrats. It has Democratic policies. And it outperforms Texas and other red states in most metrics that normal people would consider desirable attributes of a place to live. I’m sure it’s all thanks to some noble right wing superheroes right out of your favorite Ayn Rand novel. But while you’re trying to promote that myth, you should know the reality is blue states = more prosperity in this country. Chew on that.
As for the U.S., the government may have been split as you said, no argument there, but the progressive policies weren’t repealed once they became law. The right wingers frothed at the mouth over the decades just the right wingers froth at the mouth on this website today, and magically, somehow, these liberal policies, predicted to bankrupt the country and ruin this great nation throughout the decades [cue phony tears] blah blah blah, not only did NOT bankrupt the country, they contributed to its continuous economic superiority for more than 60 years.
You spotted my “concern” as fake. You’re too smart for me!
F&B
Strictly speaking “printing money” is a poor way to monetize the debt. Hard money in circulation represents M0, which used as a component of M1 comprises a little over half that amount. M1 itself represents about 1/7 of M2, the most widely looked at representation of “liquid monies”. My point was that to inject money into the economy, the Fed has much more powerful tools, and they all basically involve using debt instruments. As an example, the total amount of coins and currency in circulation is a trillion dollars +/-. Just to double that amount would be difficult and clumsy. OTOH, recently the Fed used it’s ability to issue T-Bills and bought up about 2 trillion in T- Bonds. This injected 2 trillion dollars into the economy in a matter of minutes.
While your comment is technically correct in the most narrow sense, it has not really been a practical method for 40 years or so. When the government choses to “print money”, the actual printing hardly figures in.
Bad Dog; I didn’t say that the “fat-cat” bonuses don’t bother me per se, I said that I equate them with paying over a million dollars a year for the First Lady’s personal staff.
Both parties use childish strategies constantly. Like, for example, the democRat party’s attempt to demonize We The People who stood up against socialized health care during the “town hall meetings” by calling us the ‘Brooks Bros. brigades’, etc. It is just shameful what Madame Boxer, et. al. are doing, and the Left should be just as outraged as the Right that our elitist democrat government would not only tolerate, but condone such behavior.
It is funny that liberals constantly obstruct and disrupt government for eight years straight while a Republican President is in office. But then, they get a democrat president for four years and just can’t stop whining when the Republicans act the same way they did.
“blue states = more prosperity in this country.” — This is a chicken vs egg discussion. As I mentioned before, the prosperity came first, then the state turned blue. The policies that make the state such a desirable place to live eventually drive business away to other states (or overseas).
Then as the state becomes poorer and has to cut back on social programs, the demographics shift again. It is much like Doomed’s story about the beer and BBQ. Poorer people move to richer states, when they are able to do so they begin electing the candidates who offer them benefits (robbing from Peter to pay Paul), or who offer to spread the wealth around. Eventually, the people who are creating the wealth in the first place move again, and the cycle starts over. Look at the shift in demographics over the 60 years you mentioned before. That’s about long enough for 1-1/2 of these cycles. Illinois is losing businesses and losing its revenue base rapidly. It is not as relatively prosperous as it was 20 or 40 years ago. It will not be able to support all the social programs that make it such a nice place to live indefinitely.
I actually considered myself to be a democrat until Carter nearly destroyed our country. Then I wasted a vote that I cast for John Anderson in 1980. But the democrat party today has become The Party of Hate. This is a change that has occurred post-Clinton, who was a reasonably good President except for his personal lack of morality. The Hate has been fueled by the likes of George Soros, that fat filmmaker whose name escapes me at the moment, Pelosi, Barney Frank, and others in the party who let their hatred for George W. Bush and for people they disagreed with cloud their judgement and affect their ability to compromise for the greater good. All they are interested in now is their own power. And they will stop at nothing to get it. They will turn on their own in a heartbeat if it helps them get their way.
To say that Republicans froth at the mouth and democrats are responsible for the greatness of the U.S. economy demonstrates a child-like naivete as to the complexities of our government and our society, and a lack of understanding of the role business, yes even big business, has played in developing this country.
And, on another point, several posts ago you falsely and incorrectly “spotted” my “concern” as fake. As far as I’m concerned, anyone who survived the 9/11 attack after being as close to ground zero as you described your wife was, is a hero in his or her own right. You were both very lucky that day. I don’t write “fake” concern.
Joe Lovell; I heard about that story, thanks for the link.
If this is truly the direction government controlled health care will move in, it has got to be stopped. The tragedy that woman and her family must have to endure now is beyond description.
The democrats are trying to demonize anyone who speaks the truth about socialized health care, but here we have a concrete example. The government says “saving your life isn’t cost effective, but we’ll pay for your suicide”.
** Maybe this is the natural progression of a culture that has accepted abortion. If we allow the murder of innocent pre-born babies, how long could it be until we start allowing the murder of the elderly and infirm.
It isn’t a big deal until it happens to you.
FanB, Thanks. I really want to believe that the lady in OR is an isolated incident, and that she will get the help she needs. One irony of the whole thing is that many (MANY I said, not ALL)who push for assisted suicde (death on demand), are at the same time against private ownership of firearms becuase ….. firearms make suicide too easy for people. So, you can ask the State to kill you and that is OK, but it isn’t OK to take a full mag and some quite time for yourself. Hmmm…..
Your comments about election cycles, demographics changing is pretty close, if not spot on. Look at CA. Our legislature has been controlled by Dems pretty much forever (sicne 1970 I think there are only two years when they did not hold a strong majority in both houses of our legislature, even though as often as not we have a Republican gov). We would have spent ourselves into the quagmire we have now much sooner if it wasn’t for the supermajority requirement. None of the leftist capons have ever seen a special interest that they didn’t want to throw money at – except maybe some funding for Eddie Eagle programs to promote firearm safty. Only they, and the all powerful State can be trusted with them eeee-vviillll gunz, don’tchyaknow. (and of course, anyone who can contribute large amounts of money to the Dems).
I think your date for when the Dems started to rely on the politics of hate and division is a bit late. I would take it back about another 20 years, to when they started really pushing the idea that we are not all Americans equally, but hyphenated Americans, with each little group a victim of all the other little groups. Once you start that cult of victimhood, where people are taught that they must feel oppressed and that no matter what they do, they will remain victims, you can’t allow the people to see that if they just stop thinking of themselves as victims they can indeed not be victims.
Yes, there was a time when affirmative action was needed, but that time is long past. In many ways the Dems have dropped back to the ante-bellum days, telling blacks and others that they are not as smart, not as talented, not as intellegent as whites by preaching to them that they need special programs and special treatment to be equal. If they truely are equal, they don’t need the special programs. If they must have the special programs, they are not equal.
@Joe and FandB: Nobody is going to kill your parents when Congress finally passes a healthcare package. Nobody is going to encourage them to kill themselves, nobody is going to deny them essential care, nobody is going to kill them. This would be funnier if adults didn’t take it so seriously; it’s right up there with your FEMA death camps and birther nonsense–but I guess when you consider mock rage a sixth food group, after a while you need to start making **** up.
Good news, though. I DID hear a rumor that the government WILL be handing out tin foil hats to moonbats. I consider that a good use of my tax dollars.
@FandB, who says, “I didn’t say that the “fat-cat” bonuses don’t bother me per se, I said that I equate them with paying over a million dollars a year for the First Lady’s personal staff.”
So tens of millions of taxpayer dollars going directly to pay the people who crashed the economy with bad business decisions upsets you exactly as much as the First Lady having a paid staff, like all previous First Ladies. It’s like saying the bonuses upset you as much as grass being green.
Gee, I wonder what the weather is like on your planet.
“Both parties use childish strategies constantly.”
Like create talking points about the First Lady’s staff?
@FandB, who says, “Like, for example, the democRat party’s attempt to demonize We The People who stood up against socialized health care during the “town hall meetings” by calling us the ‘Brooks Bros. brigades’, etc.”
By “We The People,” you mean Them The Paid Operatives, right? But of course you do! But being in the Republinut Party, everything you say is actually the exact opposite of what you mean. I lived through Bush. I get how it works. I can read the subtitles.
The truth is the “angry mobs” were a few ****birds bought and paid for by the same folks who brought you teabagging on a national scale. So unless the entire American people are professional ****birds who show up at town halls where adults are debating vital topics like their healthcare, turning it into political theater for the MSM, then I would have to say you don’t even know who We The People Are.
http://pr.thinkprogress.org/2009/08/pr20090805/index.html
“It is just shameful what Madame Boxer, et. al. are doing, and the Left should be just as outraged as the Right that our elitist democrat government would not only tolerate, but condone such behavior.”
I have no idea what you’re talking about here. This talking point hasn’t been absorbed into my consciousness through osmosis yet. Given your penchant for getting outraged over nothing, I’m sure it’s going to be irritating.
“It is funny that liberals constantly obstruct and disrupt government for eight years straight while a Republican President is in office.”
You’re talking about the U.S., right, and the years 2001-2008, right, in the third dimension of reality, right? Just checking. So what are you talking about? The few Democrats in Congress standing up to Bush’s radical right wing agenda? So if you hired a guy to stand on my lawn and take a dump on it and shout at my kid, you would equate that to me writing you an angry letter? Are you really that soulless that you can say this with a straight face?
“But then, they get a democrat president for four years and just can’t stop whining when the Republicans act the same way they did.”
See: the years 2001-2008. Check it out. Real things happened.
““blue states = more prosperity in this country.” — This is a chicken vs egg discussion. As I mentioned before, the prosperity came first, then the state turned blue.”
Whatever. Your ideology, the foundation of which is bizarre mythology, is set in stone. Government and liberals are evil and rule the universe. Underdog giant corporations and big strong men are pure and fight for their ancient liberties. I get it. It’s false and lame, but I get it. No further discussion is needed. Picture me giving you a patronizing pat on the head and saying, “SURE you’re Napoleon. Absolutely.”
“It is much like Doomed’s story about the beer and BBQ.”
You mean the story where Doomed demonstrated an overly inflated sense of his own manhood, common among self-hating gays that riddle the Repugnant Party?
The rest is just repetition and the same old boring mock rage at whatever. I see you get paid by the word. At this point, you’re ranting but all I hear is blah, blah, blah Clinton blah blah Carter destroying blah blah I was a Democrat until I saw the light blah blah blah all goodness comes from corporations etc.
@Chuck, who says, “Strictly speaking “printing money” is a poor way to monetize the debt.”
Your entire post in 58 is absolutely correct and explained the process much better than I was able to.
Wow, three more blogs on this thread and it makes the “Top 5″… c’mon, veee connn DO EEET!!! LOL…
Bump! LMFAO! We need a new #5 (Our Most Active Posts) badly… c’mon, now
Only one more after this, Guns? Although, with it off the front page, I don’t have a lot of hope of it making it into the top 5.
How many to put it into the top 3?
This does it bro! LMFAO!!!
6 more puts it in the Top 3…
Just six more? Why, hell, we should be able to do that easy.
(i think we can i think we can i think we can – clicks his heels three times.)
Hell, that’s what I was just thinkin’, Joe — here we go — this is the proverbial “straw” that broke the proverbial “camel’s” proverbial “back”… we DID it, brother