THE GUN TOTING LIBERAL™

81 Comments so far ↓

• The GTL™ // Aug 16, 2009 at 2:10 PM

  Provocative Op-Ed article as always, Mr. Doster, my friend While I agree with your call for more federal accountability I also believe there is a great need for more corporate accountability; not so much with small businesses but definitely when it comes to any business that goes “public”.

  Once they choose that road, I believe they should be held to a much higher level of accountability to the public than they are today versus simply being held accountable by their shareholders and the very relaxed federal standards they are these days.

  Just my 2 cents and it’s actually a repetitive comment coming from me since I’ve ranted and raved about this for years right here on this blog and one could simply do a blog search for the word “Oligarchy” to get a more detailed argument by me for making this statement and taking this stance.

  Always a pleasure, always provocative, Mr. Doster! Thanks again, my friend and BLOG ON!!!

• Joe Lovell // Aug 16, 2009 at 5:32 PM

  AS I have said before, 3 of 5 of my legislative branch reps (two senators, one member of the House, and one each CA State aenate and assembly and it was members from each house of Congress, and a CA assemblyman who didn’t need outside opinions) have told me that they don’t want or need outside or opposing views. Those worthies know what is best for us (yes, the staph (sic) members said that to me). And guess what? The are all D-CA. Sometimes I have had to call outside the district, talk to the staff (sic) of another representative to get information in a timely manner. And for some reason, the only ones I could get to help me had an R in the spot for party affiliation. Always friendly and helpful, even though I was from outside their district. Imagine that.

• Joe Lovell // Aug 16, 2009 at 6:04 PM

  Willie Brown – likely one of the shrewdest political operators we have ever seen says this about the Town Hall Demonstrations:

  “I don’t care who’s behind them or who’s putting out the call to action – these protests over President Obama’s health care plan are real.

  The people showing at these town hall meetings are real, too, and Democrats had better realize it before it is too late.

  Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity may be sounding the charge, but people are genuinely concerned that someone in Washington is messing with their health care. And believe me, politics doesn’t get more personal than that.

  Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/columns/williesworld/#ixzz0ONzRl7PY
  ”
  While I might not care for his politics, or the way he plays the game, I do have to respect him for his skill at knowing what way the political wind is blowing. I don’t think there is anyone on the political scene now with his knack for being able to read the people and find what is important.

• Jacob // Aug 16, 2009 at 8:10 PM

  People, people, people…I’m reading the articles written by Mr. Doster (great articles, by the way) and reading the comments, and it always seems to be the same thing. This isn’t a battle between Democrats and Republicans. This is a battle between Americans and our elected officials. They don’t care about us. President Bush pushed our debt up a huge amount. President Obama pushed our debt up a huge amount. Two separate parties, but they both did the exact same thing.

  So, this isn’t a base of CEO Obama managing money bad or a case of CEO Bush managing money bad. This is a case of the politicians not caring about our desires and our wants.

  In the end, this is a case of a two party dictatorship and what is more important, in my eyes, than the constant party bickering is to get rid of the dictatorship by voting it out. That is what is most important. I hate to break it to you, but whether we have a Republican or a Democrat in office, the exact same thing is going to happen. It’s just a fact of life.

• JBFREE // Aug 16, 2009 at 8:53 PM

  There is a need for more corporate accountability for sure. And sure there is no doubt that both parties (Repubs and Dems) have become corrupt and disconnected with the people. However, to me, the point of Mr. Doster’s post is clear. There is absolutely no excuse for how Obama and the Democrats have been treating attendees to the town hall meetings, dismissing them as mobsters, and downplaying their (our) voices. These have been passionate, everyday, upstanding citizens who are incredibly alarmed at how Obama and the Democrats are trying to ram a complex health care reform bill through congress (when most have not even read the bill and the bill itself is unclear yet filled with very scary wording). If Obama and the Democrats truly and passionately believed in this health care reform bill, they would WELCOME town hall meetings and be able to cite specific benefits of this bill. Again, there is no excuse for how Obama, the Democrats, and most of the media is characterizing American citizens (shareholders) at the town hall meetings. Instead of Obama saying “shut up”, he and his allies should shut up and listen very carefully to what many concerned citizens (shareholders) have to say. It is just absurd that this bill is being raced through. This is a very complex topic with major long term implications. We need our government to spend 6 more months debating it and improving it before anyone even thinks about voting on it. And how about addressing tort reform? And how about considering a different bill altogether, one that puts pressure on insurance companies and the medical industry via private sector methods, competition, capitalism, limited government? Does anyone out there have a better idea . . . one that reaches across the aisle . . . to avoid a huge government takeover of the medical industry? Once again, well done Mr. Doster! The American Citizens are the Shareholders and should not be dismissed. We need to be heard!

• bad dog // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:07 PM

  CLD says: “I’ve worked for several publicly traded international medical device companies, and have attended many a company shareholders meeting.”

  I’m glad you said this, CLD, because up until then I would have bet any amount of money you had actually NOT worked for a large corporation. But of course right wingers admire corporations.

  First, they’re virtual police states. When you enter private property, many of your Constitutional rights go out the window. They can search your person, your bags, etc. Of course you have a choice: You can quit and try to get another job where you will be subjected to the same treatment. Or you can refuse to work at all and starve.

  Second, corporations maintain the pretense of democracy at shareholder meetings but a lot of times this is a sham. CEOs stack their boards with cronies who won’t fire them, which is how not just the CEO of GE (CLD obviously picking on GE because they own MSNBC, which airs Keith Olberman, who wars with his hero Bill O’Reilly), but the CEOs of many corporations. When shareholders occasionally revolt, they are shut down. Some corporations, for example, restrict invitations to shareholder meetings to only shareholders they want there. Wal-Mart is famous for this. No dissenting voices are allowed. Again, just like the Republicans. The most amazing thing about a right winger with a gun outside an Obama town hall is that somebody who disagrees with the President was actually allowed within three miles of him. In the Age of Bush, everybody was pre-screened as Bush loyalists, and if you even wore an anti-war T-shirt, you were ejected. (And right wingers everywhere, who only give lip service to liberty–meaning they like liberty for themselves, but not for anybody else–loved it.)

  Here are a few more similarities between big corporations and Republicans. Big corporations are actually considered legally citizens in this country, which means they can claim Constitutional rights normally reserved to human beings to avoid accountability. Republicans similarly preach accountability, but never practice it. Big corporations want to make money conducting an economic activity, but any side effect of that activity, like pollution, they want somebody else to pay for other than themselves. Very similar to Republicans, who want everything for themselves, and screw everybody else. And big corporations are often led by CEOs who play Russian roulette with their employees’ and shareholders’ lives and wealth by engaging in risky deals (such as M&As) purely to enrich themselves by making the stock volatile enough to trigger their stock options, so they can then cash out. Very similar to Bush and his optional war.

  Should I trust government or big corporations? Hm. My Social Security is fine. How your 401K doing?

  “Gordon Gekko may have been demonized in the movie, and yes, he was “the bad guy”. But as we compare the operations of one very large organization to another (the federal government), who is really the villain?”

  I can’t believe I have to explain the movie Wall Street to somebody, but Gekko was the villain because he didn’t make his money honestly. He stole it via insider trading. He also wrecked companies and sold off the pieces to enrich himself, without adding value. He actually did nothing to earn his money. He was all style and no substance.

  More qualities Republicans admire, apparently.

• bad dog // Aug 16, 2009 at 10:14 PM

  @JBFree, who says, “There is absolutely no excuse for how Obama and the Democrats have been treating attendees to the town hall meetings, dismissing them as mobsters, and downplaying their (our) voices.”

  So you can scream at people who disagree with you, but they’re not allowed to criticize you for it. Once again, a right winger who thinks the Bill of Rights is the Bill of Rights for Republicans Only. The arrogance of these people is astounding.

  “These have been passionate, everyday, upstanding citizens …”

  You lost me already.

  “If Obama and the Democrats truly and passionately believed in this health care reform bill, they would WELCOME town hall meetings and be able to cite specific benefits of this bill.”

  If you really, truly and passionately believed in a real debate, you would already know that that’s what Obama has been doing. You would also know that the town hall meetings are specifically for this purpose. You would further know that they would cite specific benefits if right wingers in the audience 1) knew how to listen and 2) would stop disrupting the event.

  “Again, there is no excuse for how Obama, the Democrats, and most of the media is characterizing American citizens (shareholders) at the town hall meetings.”

  Stop comparing citizens to shareholders. We have NOTHING in common. Being a citizen, with its rights and responsibilities, is entirely different than making an investment in a business and hoping to earn a profit when you later sell that investment. If you don’t understand the difference, I will explain it to you.

  “Does anyone out there have a better idea . . . one that reaches across the aisle . . .”

  There is no common ground. The Democrats want to try to solve a problem. The Republicans want to prevent it from being solved to protect insurance industry profits. What could we possibly have in common?

  “… to avoid a huge government takeover of the medical industry?”

  Maybe if right wingers actually did shut up and listen, they might know that the bill could charitably be characterized as a modest step in the general direction of socialized healthcare. There is no government takeover of anything. Period. End of story.

  “Once again, well done Mr. Doster! The American Citizens are the Shareholders and should not be dismissed. We need to be heard!”

  I am not a shareholder. I am a citizen. And my country, thankfully, is not yet so completely ****ed that it could be compared to a corporation.

• JBFree // Aug 17, 2009 at 12:34 PM

  @BadDog . . . agreed that many corporations are poorly run and corrupt, but not all. I’ve worked at several ethical corps over the years and ones that employ people, provide benefits, and even have social responsibility. Yes, many greedy corps do cut corners but not all and not the ones I work with and for. I’ve not responded because I am very busy in the trenches of helping sharp mfg companies in the over-taxed USA actually thrive. Yes, I can help corps non-union and even union thrive . . . however, with all the additional taxes and soon to be 50% taxes on all wages due to a government health care takeover, we are losing the battle. The American spirit within corps is amazing and under proper leadership and low tax can thrive. My point was agreeing with CLD that how Obama and Pilosi and other Dems called town hall normal people mobsters is absurd. I welcome debate and yet you defend Obama who has trouble speaking without his teleprompter? And one who is pushing a health care reform care bill quickly through congress yet has not even read it? Have you read it? All 1000 pages? I’ve tried and it is really confusing and scary. Reading the Dem summary version makes it all seem like it is wonderfull. Bull*****! How many other bills that were vague and full of legal wording were passed in the past, then refined / twisted? My point is that this damned country had best debate this a few more months from all sides. This is not a bill to rush through congress. Personally I work my butt off and earn my medical care not sit on sideline expecting the government to provide it for me. And Obama with his “it won’t cost” or “you can keep your existing policy.” More BS. Look at the tax rates in Europe . . . 50% tax! I already pay 33% income only, then add school and property tax . . now with this bill going through it will go to 50% tax which is absurd. And I’ll not be able to keep my existing medical coverage because that coverage will be driven out of business by the govt plan. “No common ground” you say? BS again. I’ve spend 25 years in manufacturing finding common ground between multiple parties that do not agree. There is always common ground and the power of a Team and lots of debate can be remarkable. Finding improvements in private business is proven through the use of brainstorming, team debate, fact collecting, data analysis, fiscal responsibility, etc. It is very unfortunate that our politicians have absolutely no business sense or fiscal responsibility or problem solving skills. Perhaps some do but the power to vote along party lines and support so many special interests is staggering.

  “Maybe if right wingers actually did shut up and listen, they might know that the bill could charitably be characterized as a modest step in the general direction of socialized healthcare. There is no government takeover of anything. Period. End of story.” Again, have you read the bill? Do you understand it? Can you or Obama defend it? Do the countries of this world who have socialized healthcare have better services than the USA? I will agree that other countries use their brains, get off the couch, work out, exercise, eat better, etc. so their health is better than most stressed out lazy americans. However, when it comes right down to seeking the best doctors and best medical care on the planet, the technology and advanced health care is in the USA and under my current plan I can get it. I’m not looking forward to waiting in line and having govt beauracrats make medical decisions for me. And I can just hear the, what about all those who have no health care? Well, the illegal aliens can wait or go back to their country or get a job and earn health care. For those who lose their jobs, yes, this is where we need debate and rules for giving health care to USA citizens, but citizens who deserve it. I do not want a govt health care system and I also think our existing health care system needs improvement. However, again my point is, slow down, debate this further, pull in independent credible experts (not special interests on both sides), follow solid problem solving and improvement idea generation techiques . .. and arrive at the best solution . . . not one rammed down our throats. It can be done but it will take solid leadership and the voice of citizens. PS, I am not a right winger. I am slightly right of center who has spent 25 years in business finding and implementing solutions in ethical American corporations who provide jobs and benefits for American citizens and tax revenue for the government. Back to the original CLD post, he used shareholders in a corp who have a listened to voice to make his point that the dismissal of citizens at town hall meetings was wrong and I continue to agree with his well written post. Every day I pray that true, brave, independent, ethical leaders emerge to fix our country. So far, I have to say that I do not see those leaders yet on either side, Republican or Democrat. It is time for some Independents to step forward . . . and not wishy washy independents . . . I’m talking about true independents, people who are ethical, have common sense, and know how to work from the center, not the extremes.

• JBFree // Aug 17, 2009 at 12:36 PM

  PS. @Bad Dog. I won’t be responding for a few days because I am currently extremely busy in the trenches of american business and manufacturing trying very hard to help my corp thrive in this economy . . . with more and more waves of higher taxes coming our way thanks to the current administration’s plan to tax and tax and tax and spend and spend and spend . . . driving out small business which, guess what? reduces tax revenue.

• Alabama Moderate // Aug 17, 2009 at 12:39 PM

  I’ve been suggesting for a while that we do away with the government plan that our congressmen and their staffs use– forcing them to opt for whatever private options are available to the rest of us. Further, they should be required to use whatever plan they craft. That goes for Democrats AND Republicans.

  They can’t understand the issue or craft a solution without having to experience the problem, and the congressional health plan shows that they can craft a good quality plan if they really want to. Right now, our interests are not the same as their interests, so they can’t possibly represent us. When our interests and their interests become the same, then I can guarantee you that they will be more likely to serve our interests.

  But odds are, the American public isn’t willing to fight for the above.

• bad dog // Aug 17, 2009 at 2:05 PM

  @JBFree, who says, “. I welcome debate and yet you defend Obama who has trouble speaking without his teleprompter?”

  What is it with this lame talking point? Bush could barely put two words together. Obama is obviously articulate intelligent. Is this that Rovian tactic of attacking a person’s strength? You know, Obama draws big crowds, and so did Hitler, so he must be Hitler. He gives a good speech, but only with a teleprompter. Right?

  It’s LAME, folks. Completely LAME.

  “Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.” — President George Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

• The GTL™ // Aug 17, 2009 at 2:39 PM

  Gordon Gekko (Michael Douglas) “Greed is good” speech, courtesy of CLD:

• bad dog // Aug 17, 2009 at 2:56 PM

  @JBFree, who says, “… agreed that many corporations are poorly run and corrupt, but not all. I’ve worked at several ethical corps over the years and ones that employ people, provide benefits, and even have social responsibility.”

  All corporations are by their very definition amoral. Not moral, not immoral, but amoral.That’s my point. That’s why they must be regulated. And that’s why they are not like our government. Second, all large institutions are bureaucratic and bungling. I worked for my share of big companies and they try to make you sign pieces of paper basically saying if you quit or get fired, you can’t work for any of their competitors, restricting your right to feed your family. Corporations do stuff like this, and we’re praising them and damning government?

  “Yes, many greedy corps do cut corners but not all and not the ones I work with and for. I’ve not responded because I am very busy in the trenches of helping sharp mfg companies in the over-taxed USA actually thrive.”

  Fact: 60% of corporations in the U.S. pay no net taxes at all, even while the biggest multinational corporations are displacing industry to countries like Communist China. They leech off our public investments in education, roads, regulation, law and order, and give nothing back except temporary employment to fewer workers they used to employ. Buy American? Go to Wal-Mart, which imports nearly $15 billion in goods a year from China? Folks, these companies are about as American as you are Iranian.

  “Yes, I can help corps non-union and even union thrive . . . however, with all the additional taxes and soon to be 50% taxes on all wages due to a government health care takeover, we are losing the battle.”

  50% taxes on all wages. Evidence, please. Cite evidence, or stop saying it.

  THIS is what makes a right winger a right winger. The gullibility to believe and then repeat any propaganda they’re told.

  “I welcome debate and yet you defend Obama who has trouble speaking without his teleprompter? And one who is pushing a health care reform care bill quickly through congress yet has not even read it?”

  Case in point. You say Obama has trouble speaking without his teleprompter, and yet if you paid attention to the debate you say you crave on healthcare, you would have seen him at various town halls speaking articulately about the benefits of the healthcare bill. So facts contradict what you and other right wingers endlessly repeat anyway. This makes you a right winger, because your ideology is more important to you than facts.

  “Have you read it? All 1000 pages?”

  Yes, and concluded it’s a moderate step in the general direction of where we need to go. My believe if Americans need a public option. But they won’t get it because of the conservative Democratic voting block.

  “How many other bills that were vague and full of legal wording were passed in the past, then refined / twisted?”

  Probably every single bill Congress ever produced lacked total clarity, but let’s not get crazy and assume that because of this government is going to send the elderly to gas chambers. In other words, just because Congress usually passes less than perfectly clear laws doesn’t mean we can read it into it whatever our ideological masters tell us to advance their agenda.

  “Personally I work my butt off and earn my medical care not sit on sideline expecting the government to provide it for me.”

  Other people work their butts off as much, or more than you, but have lousy healthcare insurance because they can’t afford good insurance, or their employer doesn’t provide it. So you would like them to go into massive debt or die if they develop a major illness and need expensive treatment. All because they didn’t “work their butt off” quite the way you do.

  “And Obama with his “it won’t cost” or “you can keep your existing policy.” More BS.”

  No, this is fact.

  “Look at the tax rates in Europe . . . 50% tax! I already pay 33% income only, then add school and property tax . . now with this bill going through it will go to 50% tax which is absurd.”

  You must be a very rich man if your taxes are going to go up. It’s time to give back, sir.

  “And I’ll not be able to keep my existing medical coverage because that coverage will be driven out of business by the govt plan.”

  Wow, so the insurance company you deal with, which probably has a near monopoly in your region, can’t survive with competition. LMAO. Man, that’s rich.

  ““No common ground” you say? BS again. I’ve spend 25 years in manufacturing finding common ground between multiple parties that do not agree. There is always common ground and the power of a Team and lots of debate can be remarkable.”

  Okay, then. Here’s the common ground. Healthcare is a right, and private industry has failed to provide it to every American at an affordable cost. So government must provide competition to private industry. There. So glad we agree.

  “Again, have you read the bill? Do you understand it? Can you or Obama defend it? Do the countries of this world who have socialized healthcare have better services than the USA?”

  The talking point requires you to ask this, I know, but I already answered this question. Yes, I did. Yes, I understand it. Yes, I have been defending it. Yes, Obama can and is defending it. Yes, other countries have better services than the USA (depending what you mean by “services”).

  “I will agree that other countries use their brains, get off the couch, work out, exercise, eat better, etc. so their health is better than most stressed out lazy americans.”

  Watch who you’re calling lazy. Our productivity is the best in the world.

  “However, when it comes right down to seeking the best doctors and best medical care on the planet, the technology and advanced health care is in the USA and under my current plan I can get it.”

  I know Republicans don’t see a problem if they personally are not experiencing it, but try, just for a second, to have a little empathy, and try, just for a second, to see the big picture here. If you like your plan, then keep your plan and let other people without a plan have one.

  “I’m not looking forward to waiting in line and having govt beauracrats make medical decisions for me.”

  No government bureaucrats are going to make decisions like this. If you care, I live in Canada, which actually has socialized medicine, and the situation you’re describing does not happen. I walk into a clinic or hospital, and get treated without ANY paperwork or cost. The only decision a “government bureaucrat”–meaning a doctor or admitting nurse–make regarding me is if there is not enough capacity to treat me for my light touch of ordinary flu, and somebody else is being admitted with a ruptured spleen, they’re going to take the dying spleen guy in front of me, and I have to wait a bit. But even then, during my visits, I have not had to wait long for doctor or hospital visits. And the care was top notch.

  “And I can just hear the, what about all those who have no health care? Well, the illegal aliens can wait or go back to their country or get a job and earn health care.”

  Basically, you are saying we should not have ANY government services, such as police, firefighters, libraries, post office, or ANYTHING–because illegal immigrants might use them.

  Think about how silly that sounds.

  “PS, I am not a right winger. I am slightly right of center who has spent 25 years in business finding and implementing solutions in ethical American corporations who provide jobs and benefits for American citizens and tax revenue for the government.”

  When you parrot right wing talking points without checking the facts, you are a right winger.

  “Back to the original CLD post, he used shareholders in a corp who have a listened to voice to make his point that the dismissal of citizens at town hall meetings was wrong and I continue to agree with his well written post.”

  Agree all you want, but the fact is many corporate shareholder meetings are rigged against dissent, just like EVERY SINGLE town hall Bush attended and spoke.

  Practice what you preach, and then maybe your side will have a shred of credibility when you lecture the rest of us.

  “It is time for some Independents to step forward . . . and not wishy washy independents . . . I’m talking about true independents, people who are ethical, have common sense, and know how to work from the center, not the extremes.”

  No thanks. I’m not interested in Independents. They basically won’t take a side and therefore have marginalized themselves in the political process. We are a two-party system and we’re stuck with it courtesy of the Founders of our Republic.

• Mike 300 spartans // Aug 17, 2009 at 4:46 PM

  Changing the subject just for a tiny moment. How about Obama saying he is willing to consider not-for-profit orgainizations running a health care program instead of the government. How about this, let us have political offices be not for profit too.

• bad dog // Aug 17, 2009 at 4:56 PM

  Obama would probably say government is already the biggest not-for-profit organization in the country. In any case, the government will not be “running” the health system.

• Mike 300 spartans // Aug 17, 2009 at 6:22 PM

  @BD- Every politician says they are not for profit, and theoretically they aren’t. But here is where theory and reality diverge. Public office, despite candidates usually spending far more getting elected then what the position pays, somehow “miraculously” end up personally far richer after serving in their “not for profit” positions then when they started most of the time. Thus, my “pie in the sky” wish and one that I don’t believe will ever happen in my lifetime is to have at least a majority of politicians being dedicated to serving America more than they are dedicated to serving themselves. I know motivations are hard, if not impossible to judge, I suspect that perhaps the majority of politicans may not have their set goal as “profit” (but you could probably substitute self aggrandizement,fame, power, and such rather than wealth for quite a good number) however, as I believe has been discussed before on this very site, once someone gets into a position where they can make a big profit based on their votes or decisions, I believe many find it too alluring to pass up.

• bad dog // Aug 17, 2009 at 7:01 PM

  Great post, Mike. On this point, we could not be in more agreement.

  It would probably be difficult to get the politicians away from the money. After they leave office, their contacts are valuable, so they end up highly paid lobbyists or sit on the boards of corporations. See: Cheney, who almost ran Halliburton into the ground and did business with Iran and Libya. See George Bush’s dad, who worked with the Saudis in the Carlyle Group. See: many, many other politicians from both parties. Even Bush Jr. made a fortune before running for governor not because he was a politician, but because his daddy was, and so he had good connections.

  There are many steps we could take, on the other hand, to get money out of politics, but unfortunately, the Republicans oppose them because they are the party of Big Business and the wealthy and powerful. Money talks in the conservative’s world, and anything else is just communism.

  For example, corporate donations to candidates and PACs is politically protected “free speech” because corporations are considered human beings via conservative judges legislating from the bench. In Canada, we have public financing of elections, which works great. More political parties can participate, and politicians are not beholden to corporations and other interest groups. And it really doesn’t cost that much. But Republicans don’t like that either.

  Seriously, Mike, so many ills could be solved if you would put your energies to changing your own party’s priorities and get the GOP to truly put “country first.”

• JBFree // Aug 17, 2009 at 8:18 PM

  @Bad Dog, your screen name is surely appropriate as you seem to love to pick fights with everyone, bark up trees, and make a lot of noise.

  We should review what transpired. CLD wrote a post comparing shareholders to citizens making the point that Obama and the Dems should not have dismissed many of the honorable, ethical, citizens who showed up at town hall meetings upset. Citizens should be heard and not dismissed. I wrote my comment praising this post because it was clearly wrong for Obama and dems to dismiss citizens at these town hall meetings. I also wrote about how health care is a very complex topic and a reform bill should not be rushed through congress. I am skeptical that Obama or anyone in congress (Repubs and Dems) actually read the bill. I discussed the need for both sides to debate this over 6 months in order to arrive at an effective solution. I do not think it should be government run health care. I also feel that the USA health care system should be reformed, preferably using a combination of some government controls but also utilize the power of capitalism and competition. Those were my comments.

  Bad Dog, true to the name “bad dog” immediately started barking and trying to bite me. “The democrats want to solve a problem, repubs want to prevent solution to protect insurance company profits.” Who has who in their pocket? Care to examine the Obama contributors, look deep, and find out exactly what he owes to which special interest? “No common ground.” That’s the attitude, continue to fight / bite everyone and cling to the far left and ignore that a solution needs to come from the center. “There is no government takeover of anything.” Really, I see lots of govt takeover in the bill I’m reading. What version are you reading?

  So I then respond with my beliefs that there is a need to have govt controls involved with corporations but limited government and that the American spirit is productive and very creative but current administrations are expanding govt, expanding taxes, and expanding taxes and this is stifling small business. Again, I emphasize the need for the health care reform bill to be slowed down and there is a need for citizens to be heard and more time given for debate so that we arrive at an effective solution, not one rushed through congress full of scary wording. I express my fears that taxes are already too high in this country and just because other countries are taxed higher, there is no need to raise our taxes. If this government was run like a business or household, there would be a lot less foolish spending and more fiscal responsibility, starting right with congressional salary, benefits, parties, etc. I also express common fear about what would happen to the USA health care system if it is taken over by government. I finished my response with a statement about Independents stepping forward because surely both Dems and Repubs have not yet solved the issues.

  And then the Alabama Moderate chimes in with a very interesting point. Will the government join the common plan? Will they put their medical plan where their mouth is? Well said especially the fact that our government sure has crafted a nice medical plan for themselves.

  True to the name Bad Dog bites again because of the comment about the teleprompter. Why the reliance on this teleprompter? Of course Bush could not speak well and I am not a Bush fan by the way. But why the teleprompter? Perhaps Obama will impress me in the future and not use one anymore.

  Then another bite about corporations needing to be regulated. I agree that some regulation on corporations is needed, but regulation, not government takeover.
  I think that we will agree about corporate greed and going overseas for greed. By the way I work for a corporation that does not go overseas and we are trying to stay with American and Canadian suppliers. However, if the Dems and Obama continue to pummel small business with more and more taxes, we might be forced overseas or out of business.

  I’ll find the 50% tax evidence regarding Europe and Canada and get back to you. Since you are a Canadian, what is your income tax %? I don’t make a lot of money quite frankly and I have been taxed at 33% for 25 years. To me, that is enough, enough is enough. I am not willing to pay 50% period.

  “You would have seen him at various town halls speaking articulately about the benefits of the healthcare bill.”

  And the questions at these town hall meetings? Staged questions perhaps? The media playing nice with Obama again?

  “Probably every single bill Congress ever produced lacked total clarity, but let’s not get crazy and assume that because of this government is going to send the elderly to gas chambers. In other words, just because Congress usually passes less than perfectly clear laws doesn’t mean we can read it into it whatever our ideological masters tell us to advance their agenda.”

  I think that it is about time that the Citizens of the USA put a stop to all bills going through congress until they are written in clear English and opened up for public debate. Sure it will slow things down but it is time to slow things down, especially major health care reform. What’s the big hurry Obama? Could it be that you are afraid for the people of our country to look under the hood before we buy this government health care vehicle?

  “Other people work their butts off as much, or more than you, but have lousy healthcare insurance because they can’t afford good insurance, or their employer doesn’t provide it. So you would like them to go into massive debt or die if they develop a major illness and need expensive treatment. All because they didn’t “work their butt off” quite the way you do.”

  Boy did you misread my statement. Of course this is where we need some debate and a reformed health care system.

  “You must be a very rich man if your taxes are going to go up. It’s time to give back, sir.”

  I give plenty of $ to charity, church, family and friends. And let’s not forget my tax $ that go to corrupt social programs and ineffective government. I make a relatively low salary, work hard, save, live within my means and will eventually be able to retire at age 70. Is that rich? I would say that I am slightly above the poverty line. And, for now, I am FREE to pursue my own business at night if I want to make more $ to possibly see retirement before age 70. However, with Obama and the Dems and all the spending and taxes, my passion for making more $ in order to perhaps give away more money is being crushed. Communism is not an effective system. I prefer capitalism that inspires action and allows rewards to those who take risks. The footnote that I would agree with you and most liberals on has to do with some regulation to prevent corruption, greed, and unethical behavior as money is made. Again, there should be some regulation, reasonable regulation, not excessive regulation and government takeovers.

  “Okay, then. Here’s the common ground. Healthcare is a right, and private industry has failed to provide it to every American at an affordable cost. So government must provide competition to private industry.”

  Health care is a right? So I should quit my job, sit on the couch, go on welfare, have some kids, and demand that the government take care of me as I grow obese? All because healthcare is a right? Are you for real?

  “Watch who you’re calling lazy. Our productivity is the best in the world.”

  And why is our productivity the best in the world Bad Dog? It is because of capitalism and a free society where people are inspired to earn things. How productive are we to be if government takes over health care and other areas of our lives? What happens to the incentive to work hard and earn things in life? My point here was that other countries do promote preventive health measures and promote a much better, more balanced lifestyle that results in a better overall health. Look at the statistics of many American citizens. Many (but not all) are very much overweight, out of shape, and not doing the preventive things that need to be done.

  “I know Republicans don’t see a problem if they personally are not experiencing it, but try, just for a second, to have a little empathy, and try, just for a second, to see the big picture here. If you like your plan, then keep your plan and let other people without a plan have one.”

  Finally, we agree with some footnotes. I would love to keep my plan and I do have empathy for WORTHY American citizens (not illegal aliens or those who go on welfare on purpose) who get stuck with no insurance. This is where we need 6 months of debate and hard / smart work on the health care bill . . . working from the center . . . using proven fact based problem solving methods.

  “No government bureaucrats are going to make decisions like this. If you care, I live in Canada, which actually has socialized medicine, and the situation you’re describing does not happen. I walk into a clinic or hospital, and get treated without ANY paperwork or cost. The only decision a “government bureaucrat”–meaning a doctor or admitting nurse–make regarding me is if there is not enough capacity to treat me for my light touch of ordinary flu, and somebody else is being admitted with a ruptured spleen, they’re going to take the dying spleen guy in front of me, and I have to wait a bit. But even then, during my visits, I have not had to wait long for doctor or hospital visits. And the care was top notch.”

  Well congratulations that, so far, you have a system that works for you. What about as you age? What about expensive cancer treatments? Or a rare disease? Perhaps the Canadian medical care system is done right. Sorry, but I am very skeptical of an American government takeover of the medical care system, especially because I really don’t know what Obama and the Dems promised to which special interest groups. And, how do you reduce health care costs? Rationed care? We all know that Bush had his special interests he owed favors to. Who does Obama owe for all the help getting him elected?

  “I live in Canada, which actually has socialized medicine”

  So you live in Canada and are barking on this blog about all that is wrong in the USA? Those in glass houses should not throw stones. Canada is a beautiful country sir, but surely not perfect.

  “Basically, you are saying we should not have ANY government services, such as police, firefighters, libraries, post office, or ANYTHING–because illegal immigrants might use them.”

  This was not my point. My point is that I have a really hard time accepting a government program that simply gives medical coverage to illegal aliens with no conditions. Perhaps there are conditions in the bill for illegal aliens that you can point out? I do have empathy and compassion for the poor and needy. However, I am fed up with illegal aliens. They should accept the current offerings in the USA, find employment, or go back to the country from which they came. We have plenty of poor and needy USA citizens that should come first. As for the entire immigration and illegal alien situation, that is another subject and, surely, one that needs more fact based solution generation from the center through debate and proven problem solving methods.

  “Agree all you want, but the fact is many corporate shareholder meetings are rigged against dissent, just like EVERY SINGLE town hall Bush attended and spoke.”

  So now Obama is rigging against dissent in his town hall meetings? Two wrongs don’t make it right.

  “Practice what you preach, and then maybe your side will have a shred of credibility when you lecture the rest of us.”

  Why are you thinking I am right winged and a fan of Republicans and Bush? Do you not see that I am slightly right of center and Independent and will always be Independent. Bush was wrong on many counts and guess what? Obama is going down a wrong path also . . . with a clearly arrogant, almost pompous attitude from what I see.

  “No thanks. I’m not interested in Independents. They basically won’t take a side and therefore have marginalized themselves in the political process. We are a two-party system and we’re stuck with it courtesy of the Founders of our Republic.”

  Some Independents have marginalized themselves but not all. Truly brave people are interested in working from the center, pulling the valid, proven, correct facts and methods from both sides to arrive at the best solution. The world is not always black or white. . . the reality is that there is gray. And I am not talking about compromising on core principles ever. I am talking about reaching consensus on the key areas to achieve an actual effective solution, especially on health care. It is time to start a 3rd party, an objective, independent party. Perhaps it is time to stop all the barking and biting and get down to the business of solving the problems once and for all.

• CLD // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:34 PM

  http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw

• CLD // Aug 17, 2009 at 9:36 PM

  http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/52602

• Mike 300 spartans // Aug 17, 2009 at 10:00 PM

  @B.D. yes, to the greater extent I agree with your response to my post. Particularly the part that you said: “Great post Mike”. That being said, I can expand and say in general, I like pressures to change something come from within rather than from without. Example, rather than a Christian touting what the Islamic community needs to change, I’d rather see Muslims pushing to change problems in their culture/behavior ect. Changes within politics the same way. There are more problems in this world for any one person to handle all. One can spend one’s life like Mother Theresa, helping the needy of India, a very noble pursuit. I have found a cause within the American political system, it is a complete lack of financial responsibility by our federal government. I see a broader problem within our society as well, personally I’m too quick to spend and borrow and slow to pay back and save. I’m confident that sadly, I’m in the majority. Well, as I battle with my own money management habits, I just hate being undercut by the government spending my money for me. Making me pay for schools my kids don’t go to, threatening to make me pay for a health care plan that I never intend to use. Making me pay for cars I don’t buy and cover union contracts that I didn’t sign. I am not against a safety net. But have you ever looked at a real safety net? It is very thin, and full of holes. Just barely enough to keep someone alive. Some people want to constantly build and strengthen the safety net. They want safety to be as strong as iron bars, they want not a net but a cage that one can lock one’s self into, safe from any possible calamity. We should call it that, a safety cage. Just get in the cage and they’ll provide you food,education, medical, and it doesn’t stop, got to save people from tobacco, forclosers, and high mileage cars. Up next, saving people from hamburgers and high sugar soda. Keep building and improving the cage, soon we’ll be safe from everything, certainly safe from the dangers of freedom.

• CLD // Aug 17, 2009 at 10:07 PM

  Mike,

  I will say to you sincerely, without “tongue in check”….GREAT post Mike. The only way to dispute your real world examples is with the typical far left theory of a Utopian world…yet to be achieved by any nation, unless you want to include Cuba….

• CLD // Aug 17, 2009 at 10:12 PM

  As the “nazi mobs” march in lock step, the Dems decline begins….

  http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_13095441?nclick_check=1

• bad dog // Aug 17, 2009 at 10:26 PM

  @Mike300, who says, “Yes, to the greater extent I agree with your response to my post. Particularly the part that you said: “Great post Mike”.”

  LOL, I thought that might be your favorite part.

  “That being said, I can expand and say in general, I like pressures to change something come from within rather than from without. Example, rather than a Christian touting what the Islamic community needs to change, I’d rather see Muslims pushing to change problems in their culture/behavior ect. Changes within politics the same way.”

  Absolutely. This is why I ask all real conservatives to rejoin the Republican Party and jettison the freaks who have hijacked it.

  “I see a broader problem within our society as well, personally I’m too quick to spend and borrow and slow to pay back and save. I’m confident that sadly, I’m in the majority.”

  This is true. And one is never truly free until one is out of debt. Debt is just another form of control.

  “Well, as I battle with my own money management habits, I just hate being undercut by the government spending my money for me. Making me pay for schools my kids don’t go to, threatening to make me pay for a health care plan that I never intend to use. Making me pay for cars I don’t buy and cover union contracts that I didn’t sign.”

  See, this is the difference between a liberal and a conservative. You pay taxes. You don’t want them to go for things you don’t personally use, seeing no benefit otherwise. Me, I don’t use any of them directly. And yet I am where I am today, with the wealth I have and the education I have, because tax dollars were spent the way they were spent and contributed to the development of a strong middle class. You got to see the big picture, Mike.

  For example, when the Democrats passed legislation protecting unions, the unions set the average wage in the country. About 35% of the workers were unionized, and they influenced wages for another 35%. As a result, men could support families, own a car, save for retirement, buy a house, all on a single salary. Angry at unions? You should be thanking them for what they accomplished, Mike. Now you’re lucky to scrape by at the lower end of the wage scale with both husband and wife working, and possibly two jobs at that. You think everybody is just blowing money? They are trying to maintain a dying way of life with stagnant wages, Mike. Now unions are about 10% of the workforce. And guess what? Most of the economic gains since 2000 went to capital, not labor. And who is capital? The investor class.

  You are getting fleeced, Mike, and blaming the wrong people for it.

  “I am not against a safety net. But have you ever looked at a real safety net? It is very thin, and full of holes. Just barely enough to keep someone alive. Some people want to constantly build and strengthen the safety net. They want safety to be as strong as iron bars, they want not a net but a cage that one can lock one’s self into, safe from any possible calamity.”

  That safety net does not exist. Today, people can claim unemployment benefits that they paid into, and if destitute, go on welfare and food stamps. There is no such thing as a “welfare queen.” You take any person on welfare, they would trade places with you in a second.

  In any case that part of the welfare state is so tiny a part of your taxes I’m surprised it upsets you, given the benefits it provides to your community. Strangely, I don’t see you upset that we blew hundreds of billions of dollars to date for an optional war in Iraq. Nor do I see you upset that 40-50% of your tax dollars goes to maintain a massive military that we don’t need. At least with Obama, you get roads, new schools, bridges, healthcare–things society can use, things that are actually investments. With Bush, you get a quadrupling of the national debt and nothing to show for it, unless you count a massive recession and a weak dollar a good return on your investment.

  Put the rage where it belongs, Mike.

• bad dog // Aug 17, 2009 at 10:30 PM

  @CLD, who thinks if a health system isn’t perfect, it’s crap, but mistakenly believes the U.S. system is perfect: Thanks for the link about the Canadian health system. Every couple of years it gets run down, usually due to cost cutting measures. Then the medical community gets together and complains, some studies are done, government ups its funding, and the system is refreshed. I know this is complicated and that complicated things upset you, but that’s how it is.

  The fact is Canadians pay less for their healthcare, which comes at a lower cost, and they get better care. They also live longer and have fewer babies die:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

  It’s a good article. Enjoy.

• CLD // Aug 17, 2009 at 10:53 PM

  @BD…

  See, here is your problem (or should I say only one that many observe)..

  “I know this is complicated and that complicated things upset you, but that’s how it is.” unqoute

  You can never make a point without a personal attack (watching GTL). You can never stay focused on one point (see JBFREE comments)…

  Keep drinking your Canadian Kool aid, and bashing everyone else. Where did you get all your degrees on “everything”….

  Heres another one, try keeping your irrational retorts to under 1000 words. You might get a better response…

  Lsst point…You may be the enlightened one, with your multi-paragraph answers to all Liberal, but the average American, loses you after the first paragraph…HEY, you would be a great politician…blah, blah, blah, complicated policy, defensive, authoritarian, and oh yea, Canadian…the Perfect politican…

• bad dog // Aug 17, 2009 at 11:39 PM

  @JBFree, who says, “Your screen name is surely appropriate as you seem to love to pick fights with everyone, bark up trees, and make a lot of noise.”

  You got me.

  “We should review what transpired. CLD wrote a post comparing shareholders to citizens making the point that Obama and the Dems should not have dismissed many of the honorable, ethical, citizens who showed up at town hall meetings upset. Citizens should be heard and not dismissed. I wrote my comment praising this post because it was clearly wrong for Obama and dems to dismiss citizens at these town hall meetings.”

  If these citizens weren’t repeating lies, they’d be taken more seriously. Since they are simply repeating lies, they aren’t taken seriously. If that upsets you, then tell your friends to stop showing up at town halls and screaming lies.

  “I also wrote about how health care is a very complex topic and a reform bill should not be rushed through congress. I am skeptical that Obama or anyone in congress (Repubs and Dems) actually read the bill.”

  Yes, yes, as I said before, you know your talking points. If you aren’t sure they read the bill, why don’t you ask them instead of constantly repeating your concern they haven’t? We got the point. You don’t to repeat it constantly.

  “That’s the attitude, continue to fight / bite everyone and cling to the far left and ignore that a solution needs to come from the center.”

  The current healthcare bill is not endorsed by the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. So it IS the product of the center. But you don’t realize that, because you’re buying into the propaganda.

  “I express my fears that taxes are already too high in this country and just because other countries are taxed higher, there is no need to raise our taxes.”

  Taxes are not very high in the U.S. The rich especially have it easy. Unless you’re in the top 1% of income earners, your taxes won’t go up to pay for the healthcare plan.

  “Will the government join the common plan? Will they put their medical plan where their mouth is? Well said especially the fact that our government sure has crafted a nice medical plan for themselves.”

  Um, right. They get government-insured healthcare. How about we all get what they get? Using your logic, I could make that argument. In fact, that’s what many people are saying. Why can’t the rest of us get the top-notch care reserved for Medicare recipients, the military and elected officials?

  “True to the name Bad Dog bites again because of the comment about the teleprompter. Why the reliance on this teleprompter? Of course Bush could not speak well and I am not a Bush fan by the way. But why the teleprompter? Perhaps Obama will impress me in the future and not use one anymore.”

  What are you talking about? Do you even understand what you’re saying or do you just mindlessly rattle off talking points? Since the teleprompter was invented, presidents have been using them. Bush used them, Obama uses them. There are times when they don’t speak with teleprompters. When Bush did, he sounded like he was mentally retarded. When Obama does, he’s still articulate and presents himself intelligently because he’s not an idiot like Bush was.

  So WTF is the problem?

  How can anybody take anything you say seriously when you obsess on crap like this that is meaningless except to right wingers eager to get their panties in a twist about anything?

  How can anybody take you as a person seriously when you obviously don’t treat what you hear critically, and just mindlessly repeat what you’ve been told?

  Seriously, man, get over it. Obama uses a teleprompter. Sometimes he doesn’t. Wow. Evil.

  “Then another bite about corporations needing to be regulated. I agree that some regulation on corporations is needed, but regulation, not government takeover.”

  Once again, there is no government takeover.

  “I think that we will agree about corporate greed and going overseas for greed. By the way I work for a corporation that does not go overseas and we are trying to stay with American and Canadian suppliers. However, if the Dems and Obama continue to pummel small business with more and more taxes, we might be forced overseas or out of business.”

  There are no additional taxes on small business. I know that doesn’t fit with your fantasy about communism coming to America. I know that all right wingers actually want the USA to become communist. But it ain’t happening. It ain’t gonna happen. Get over it.

  “I’ll find the 50% tax evidence regarding Europe and Canada and get back to you. Since you are a Canadian, what is your income tax %? I don’t make a lot of money quite frankly and I have been taxed at 33% for 25 years. To me, that is enough, enough is enough. I am not willing to pay 50% period.”

  I pay about the same as you pay, and no provincial (same level of government as a state), and a 5% sales tax. I pay less taxes in Canada than I do in the U.S., and guess what? I get competent government, good services, and healthcare. You get Iraq. I hope like what you bought.

  “And the questions at these town hall meetings? Staged questions perhaps? The media playing nice with Obama again?”

  You’re confusing Obama with Bush again. Bush almost never faced a hostile questioner at his town halls. They were always staged. You had to demonstrate you were a Bush loyalist to get anywhere near him. And the media gave an eight-year pass.

  If you can’t see these things, you are no moderate. You are as Right as they come.

  Why I’m bothering to penetrate your fantasy world is beyond me. This is a waste of time.

  Sorry, but I’m going to have to ignore the rest of your post.

  If you really are a consultant, and you work with big corporations and help them stay competitive, then you must have some shred of ability to think critically, one would guess. I am now making a direct appeal to that tiny spark in your brain that doesn’t gullibly accept every lie it’s been told because it was told from a right wing source of information.

  Nurture that spark, think for yourself, and get back to me. Cuz right now, dude, everything you say, I can get from Sean Hannity. Why should I talk to you?

• The GTL™ // Aug 17, 2009 at 11:48 PM

  Couple of quick notes –

  @Bad Dog — I like the idea of PUBLIC campaign financing and I hate the 2-Party system unlike yourself, with all due respect

  Public financing (say $87m per candidate) — the top-5 polling party candidates in any given election getting EQUAL funding, EQUAL debate coverage and EQUAL voice in EVERY presidential election. Those two-party candidates (as well as any 3rd partiers) get the FRIGGIN’ DEATH PENALTY for exploiting any loopholes. In other words, ALL CANDIDATES GET THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF DOLLARS TO PROMOTE THEMSELVES PERIOD!!!

  I’m sick of this cartel we call the 2-Party system. B/D, I must also disagree with your point this “system” is courtesy of our Founding Fathers. NOWHERE in the Constitution do I see any mention of “Right” or “Left” parties NOR do I see any mention of a “2 party system”. I believe they’re all rolling in their graves watching this smoke and mirrors “foodfight” between the mobsters, a.k.a., the Democrats and the G.O.P. who’ve hijacked our country.

  You, as an American Citizen residing in Canada, who DOES enjoy a parliamentary system of government who welcomes multiple parties, trumpet the socialized Canadian system of common-sense benefits yet you trumpet the 2-party system of government in the U.S.

  I love ya, bro… but there’s some ‘splainin to be done before I can buy completely into these points of view of yours in this thread. Much more ‘splainin for the right-wingers, of course, but yannow what I mean, eh?

• Mike 300 spartans // Aug 18, 2009 at 12:36 AM

  @B.D….a massive military we don’t need. I’m willing to consider that the military is too massive, but in terms of dollars or in troop number strength. What is the right size?

  I know, I know, the right size is “Don’t invade Iraq” but if you had control of either entire number of all branches of the armed forces or the entire dollar budget for the military, what would you set either or both to be?

  @JBFree – I may have posted this before, but don’t recognize your handle. What would you say to a law that requires anything that congress votes in favor of, that every yes vote also comes with a statement saying: “I have read this bill and understand it.” (Much like employees sign an Employee handbook) then when they discover they passed millions of dollars in bonuses to AIG, they can’t point the finger to anyone but themselves. They are the ones that voted for it, if they didn’t understand it they should vote NO.

• bad dog // Aug 18, 2009 at 1:47 AM

  @Mike300: Well, the military/industrial complex is one of the few domestic industries our horrible free market/trade economic policies haven’t yet destroyed, so we would have to be careful about how fast we reduced the size of the military. Otherwise, I couldn’t say. The question would literally have to be studied.

  My question is, do we really need 30,000 troops in South Korea? Do we really need 50,000 troops in Iraq? Do we really need the more than 175,000 troops (I think, going from memory) stationed in other areas of the world, such as Europe? Do we really need more than 700 permanent military bases? What are we gaining by being the world’s cop? Who is benefiting from empire?

  AS for your requirement that Congresspeople sign a statement saying, “I have read this bill and understand it,” that’s a good idea. That way we wouldn’t get monstrosities like the Patriot Act. Usually, though, Congresspeople have their staffers read it and summarize it for them, and if they had to read every bill, they probably wouldn’t get anything done. I know that sounds appealing, and I like slow-moving government as well, but things have go get done.

• bad dog // Aug 18, 2009 at 1:59 AM

  @GTL, who says, “I like the idea of PUBLIC campaign financing and I hate the 2-Party system unlike yourself, with all due respect.”

  Actually that is not quite accurate. What I am saying is the two-party system is the natural product of the U.S. Constitution due to a lack of foresight by the Founders, who envisioned a one-party state without “factions.” Third parties have been tried but never found to be viable.

  Given that third parties aren’t viable, if you don’t like the government you have, you have four options. First, you can opt out of the system and refuse to exercise your right to vote, which is exactly what the oligarchy wants. Second, you can vote for a smaller party that has no chance of winning, and end up causing another Gore to lose another election to another Bush, and then we get another endless freak show. Third, you can vote for the official opposition, but let’s face it, I honestly doubt you or I will ever vote Republican. And lastly, you vote for the party closest to you that has a chance of winning–in our case, the Democrats–and then participate in the primary process to get candidates in place that better represent your interests.

  So when I say embrace the two-party system, I am saying if you don’t like the two parties, then you can only blame yourself if you don’t participate. Join the party closest to you and try to influence it from within. This is why the Republican Party went from being the Party of Eisenhower to the Party of Nixon to the Party of Reagan to the Party of Bush to the Party of Rush Limbaugh and His Merry Wingnuts. The “lunatic fringe,” as Eisenhower called them, have taken over the GOP and it is no longer a truly conservative alternative to liberalism. Instead, it is a cartoonish attempt at fascism–reactionary, anti-science, pro-big business, nationalistic, pro-police state, etc.

  The thing is, the USA already has public financing but it is not enough money to compete against a candidate who can raise more privately. Remember how McCain opted for public financing, then illegally changed his mind? Now if there is public financing for each candidate, with no private financing allowed, then that might level the playing field for alternate candidates. Then things might get interesting.

  But the parties will NEVER allow that, because it would threaten their hold on power.

  So we’re back to square one.

  Join the progressives who are trying to influence the Democratic Party.

  “B/D, I must also disagree with your point this “system” is courtesy of our Founding Fathers. NOWHERE in the Constitution do I see any mention of “Right” or “Left” parties NOR do I see any mention of a “2 party system”.”

  See my point above. The Constitution doesn’t explicitly require a certain number of parties, but naturally favors one party, or two. For 200 years, third parties have not been viable, while again, the two major parties have evolved over time due to party members fighting internally for influence.

• Mike 300 spartans // Aug 18, 2009 at 3:03 AM

  @B.D…For 200 years third parties have not been viable. Did you forget the Bull Moose party in 1912? T. Roosevelt and the Bull Moose party got 88 electoral votes, just narrowly losing to Woodrow Wilson’s 435 electoral votes.

• JBFree // Aug 18, 2009 at 9:25 AM

  @Mike, great idea to have congress sign off on bills forcing them to actually read them before they are made into law.

  @Bad Dog, bark, bark, bark, bite, bite, bite . . . blah, blah, blah. Since you know it all, perhaps you should run for office in the USA. Oh, that’s right you live in Canada and bash the USA every chance you get and you have all the answers for the USA yet you choose to live in Canada. Why don’t you just stick to helping solve Canadian problems because there sure are many of those (health care, provinces looking to separate, etc.). And where do you get your information? Universities? Public Media? Radio? Newspapers? Internet? I do review all of the above and it is interesting to find misinformation across the board.

  Bark on Bad Dog . . . it is entertaining to see you get all worked up and talk in circles. Please don’t respond because I am done trying to have any rational conversation with you dude. Let’s just agree to disagree and end it there.

• CLD // Aug 18, 2009 at 9:46 AM

  http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=1878506&sponsor

• CLD // Aug 18, 2009 at 9:49 AM

  Hey JBFREE…remind you of someone…MAK…has all the answers, goes off on bizzare tangents, and puts down everyone with a differetn view. Oh by the way, so much for his “Canadian health care system”…what a blow hard….

• CLD // Aug 18, 2009 at 9:54 AM

  Hey GTL, my screen saver keeps kicking on everytime the B.D.(boring dog)comments…any suggestions on new setting, he even bores my PC to death…how about limiting the word count for comments? Maybe we could limit the “ball hog” from putting us all to sleep…?…zzzzzz

• Mike 300 spartans // Aug 18, 2009 at 11:55 AM

  @CLD- I know this might not pass muster for you, but my personal devised “test” to see if BD saw himself as all knowing was the military question. If he had answered with a dollar amount or troop numbers I would have given it to you that he believed he knew everything. We all might tend to believe our opinions may carry more weight than they actually do, but I’m personally not going to accuse BD of having a godcomplex.

  @ B.D. – I think I’m willing to try Keynesian economics in one area to see if it works. Specifically, given the ression and shortage of jobs, let the government double size of the military personnel! Think of the amount of jobs that would “create” what a boom to the economy! Uniforms, rifles, and vehicles to produce. Obama rules! Obama rules! What to do with all those troops? Well, we wouldn’t want to send them too far, that wouldn’t be very “green” for fuel economy. Perhaps we could find a place a little closer to the U.S. to invade.

• Mike 300 spartans // Aug 18, 2009 at 12:04 PM

  Disclaimer- The reference to invading in post #37 was made in satire. Mike 300 Spartans in no way advocates violence on any neighbors of the United States, besides even if we controlled every ice rink in Canada, we would still have to import players.

• bad dog // Aug 18, 2009 at 12:32 PM

  @CLD, who says, “what a blow hard….”

  Grow up. You act like a little girl.

• bad dog // Aug 18, 2009 at 12:34 PM

  @CLD, if you want to post articles about the Canadian system, I’d be happy to post articles about the U.S. system. Gee, I wonder who’d win that one?

  Let me know. But you have to promise to actually read the articles.

  For now, read it and weep:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

  So much for the U.S. healthcare system.

• bad dog // Aug 18, 2009 at 12:37 PM

  @Mike300: LMAO. Actually, expanding military spending is good old Keynesian economics. In fact, from defense spending providing employment to government-provided healthcare, the military is basically a socialist country within the United States.

  Oh no, we’ve been invaded!

• The GTL™ // Aug 18, 2009 at 1:29 PM

  @Bad Dog — Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m talking about — public financing ONLY for no less than 4 or 5 (I’m open-minded) parties. Private donations accepted by anybody in the race gets them kicked out by default

  @CLD — LMFAO, brother… don’t let The Dawg get to ya’

• bad dog // Aug 18, 2009 at 1:51 PM

  @GTL: It’s a great idea, but again, it’ll never happen.

  In fact, making it too easy for political parties to become viable could actually destabilize the government. While gridlock can be a good thing at the right time, we wouldn’t want to end up like Italy, which has a history of numerous political parties and unstable government. Our stability is one of the reasons our economy is the second greatest in the world (after the European Union) and our currency and bonds are still the safest financial haven.

  Our only recourse is to try to influence from within. Join the Party, GTL! Make your vote count in your primaries to get progressive on the ticket!

• JBFree // Aug 18, 2009 at 5:52 PM

  @Bad Dog, I’d take the US medical care system as it is today any day over the Canadian health care system that is govt controlled. My dad died of a horrible lung cancer but upon finding this cancer, we used our USA private health care controlled insurance, were allowed to get many opinions, brought him to Boston to the best lung cancer surgeon in the world and paid nothing. That surgeon caught the cancer early and my dad lived another 6 years when normally with this type of cancer he’d be gone in 1-2 years. We continued to push for different types of chemo and experimental treatments over those 6 years . . all paid for by USA private insurance that my dad EARNED over his 50 years of working for USA companies.

  Had we been in Canada or Europe, I think we would have lost my dad within a year or two. . . due to denial of advanced surgeries, chemo treatments, advanced doctor consultations.

  My vote is to either leave the USA health care system alone or come up with a reasonable solid plan using USA capitalism and competition (with some govt rules) that is not an enormous government controlled health care system.

• bad dog // Aug 18, 2009 at 6:17 PM

  @JBFree, who says, “Had we been in Canada or Europe, I think we would have lost my dad within a year or two. . . due to denial of advanced surgeries, chemo treatments, advanced doctor consultations.”

  This is false. What is your evidence?

  “My vote is to either leave the USA health care system alone or come up with a reasonable solid plan using USA capitalism and competition (with some govt rules) that is not an enormous government controlled health care system.”

  The Democrats’ healthcare bill is not an enormous government-controlled healthcare system. That is another false claim. What is your evidence?

  By the way, Tommy Douglas, the Canadian politician largely responsible for Canada’s universal healthcare system (and Kiefer Sutherland’s grandfather), was recently dubbed “The Greatest Canadian” in history (based on popular vote), so it must be doing something right.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Canadian

  By the way, for those out there hating both political parties, Tommy Douglas gave a great speech about the “white cats” and the “black cats” that you’ll love:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqgOvzUeiAA

• JBFREE // Aug 19, 2009 at 11:06 AM

  @Bad Dog . . . Evidence for my fear of Canadian or European govt run health care is first hand from a few Canadian business acquaintances and some cousins in Europe who have all told me that they are not happy with the services, waiting times, and selection of doctors. As I’ve said before, the smart thing that many Canadians and Europeans do is live less stressful lives, take better care of themselves, keep their weight under control, and focus on life balance and preventive health care.

  Evidence for my fear that the new health care program will be highly govt controlled is a 1000 page bill full of strange legal wording with many references to what government agencies will be involved in. This goes back to my original point. The bill is no good as is. It needs to be improved, explained, and worked on, not rushed through. Also, when looking at how other industries run by the government actually perform, I am not in favor of having our government run health care. Government run programs do not have a good track record in my mind.

  PS. I am glad to see a more civil exchange. I will absolutely agree with you that many people in this world are confused and not certain of the facts. In my profession of quality and manufacturing and business improvement it is rather easy to get the facts and prove the facts so I am able to be very independent and objective and base statements and decisions on fact based analysis. When it comes to politics, it is very frustrating and I do not claim to know the truth. Does anyone. To really get to the real truth one must read the papers, watch the news (state run media), surf the web, get news from Europe and other countries, use your own brain and logic, probe, research, study, etc. And then maybe, just maybe, you will find the truth. It is such a shame that behind the news is usually some special interest looking to make money. As with many things, follow the money and you will usually find the root cause. I was not a Bush fan and there were ugly money driven root causes for many of his admins actions. I am not a fan of Obama nor the current Dems in congress because I really worry about what they owe to who and exactly what is driving all the details of the health care.

  In my mind regarding the health care fight, there are 5 very powerful forces out there shaping this. (1) government people who want more power and see a govt takeover as a means to that goal. (2) pharmaceutical companies who want more profit, (3) insurance companies who want more profit, (4) doctors and medical professionals who want to earn a good living for the very difficult work they do, and (5) the people who just want a better health care system. It is a real shame that ethical doctors and ethical honorable citizens are last in line. The quest for power and money by politicians and pharm/insurance companies is staggering. Even against all these odds, we, the people need to debate, slow the bill down, brainstorm more, then, yes, unite, stop bickering (after there has been a valid and full debate / brainstorm), and pass the RIGHT legislation to improve our health care system.

  Ball in your court now Bad Dog . .. are you going to bark, bite, or discuss / professionally debate.

  Again, I do agree that many out there do not have all the facts (including myself) and are confused, frustrated, and tend to bicker to vent these frustrations vs. research and work really hard to find the actual truth.

• Alabama Moderate // Aug 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM

  So much to address here…

  The idea that we have the best doctors and technology isn’t completely true, either. Just a few years ago, Americans were going to Canada in droves for a new neurological procedure (something about removing tumors through the nasal cavity). Iceland is currently the leading country in genetics. Depending on what you’re referring to, it’s very likely that we might have the best technology in SOME areas, but definitely not ALL specialized fields. Regardless, to say that it’s covered under a current plan is a moot point. A government plan would not force you to have Canadian doctors and visit Mexican hospitals.

  And even if you are insured, should you be diagnosed with a chronic illness, that status could change greatly. Private insurers can and will find ways to drop you or increase your rates to a point where you can’t pay them (and then drop you). It is in the best interest of the insurance companies to provide you with the least care for the most cost. (In other words, they ration care.) It’s a business, and that’s how businesses make money. A health care system that only works if you DON’T get sick is more than a little messed up. Life and death decisions should not be based on whether or not corporate profit can be made.

  As to the teleprompter… Obama is certainly not the first or the last speaker to use a teleprompter. Sarah Palin, John McCain, both Bushes, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, and Jimmy Carter all used teleprompters and have been photographed several times doing so. Even the talking heads like Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity use teleprompters. Whatever makes Obama’s prompter special is beyond me. It makes a nice thing to jab him about, though, and there are worse things a person could be jabbed on.

  It’s funny that it’s suggested that you should quit your job, because if you get sick, that’s exactly what you’ll have to do to qualify for care after your insurer drops you. It’s sad that we live under a health care plan that the working class that wants to pay for insurance is the one class that can’t get it. That’s who this plan is for– not the poor. The poor already qualify for Medicaid. To propose that we shouldn’t provide a public option is in fact to propose that people should purposely go on welfare to qualify for Medicaid if they get sick and their private insurers won’t cover them.

  And while we’re at it, nobody is suggesting that illegal immigrants will or should qualify for the public option. No government program of that nature exists or has been proposed.

  Providing health care won’t encourage laziness. Quite the opposite, and for the reasons I just gave. It will simply work to provide a system based on helping you when you’re sick rather than the other way around. Nobody’s going to quit their job just because they want health care. They’ll still want things like new clothes and a good home and a nice car– things that are run for the most part by private industries and should be.

  There are some things that yes the government should be responsible for. Health care is one of them. Police and fire protection is another. Education is debatable, but it’s provided. And yet, even in a system where we have “socialized” police departments, public schools, fire protection, and postal service, private industry still thrives in these areas. Private security firms and private investigators still get by. Indoor sprinkler systems are still sold, as are flame retardant and flame resistant materials. The last I checked, private Ivy League colleges and private schools and tutors were doing just fine. UPS and Fedex are still around. I’m sure they could make more money and you could pay more money if there was no government alternative, but some things are just more important than government profit.

  Debate is good, but screaming over someone so that they can’t talk isn’t debate. It’s called shutting down a discussion. In order for debate or discussion to be had, you have to have two sides. And the problem is that the side doing the shouting has been fed so much information and is making it impossible to show them the truth. Anyone who takes five minutes to glance at a random fact checking site will see that anything regarding illegal immigrants receiving care, rationing, and euthanasia is just plain lies. And it’s sad to watch people fight so hard AGAINST something that will help THEM because someone told them a very scary lie that they now believe. Worse, it’s scary for those of us who’ve done the digging and know the truth to know that those same people could decide the future for us and the fates of our families, too, but we’re being shouted down and not even given the chance to tell you that. If you’ll notice, you don’t see the left shouting down discussion at Republican town halls.

  And the kicker is that John Kyl came right out and said this week that the GOP is not interested in health care reform in any form. They won’t back it, even if it’s budget neutral. So that should tell you exactly how interested in true discussion that side is.

  And yes, there are hard facts to go on. Infant mortality rate, tracking various illnesses, per person cost, and life expectancy are what you could call hard facts. Either someone died or they didn’t. Either someone received treatment or they didn’t. Either someone is sick or they aren’t. Two dollars is still more than one dollar. Those are facts, and the numbers have been crunched. While there may be exceptions to the rule on both sides of the pond and the horror stories to go with them, these numbers tell us that on average, Americans pay more (20% more per person than any other country), receive less care, die younger, have more preventable conditions, and have higher infant mortality rates than in countries with government plan. Now the word “better” is not so hard a fact, but I’ll leave it up to you as to whether “better” is defined in those terms. (Also notice that I said “better” and not “perfect”. There is no perfect plan.)

  I’m not so liberal as to say that the top 1% of earners should be the ones paying. In fact, medical care is one of the few concepts I lean liberal on. I just want the middle class to get their money’s worth when it comes to health care– because we’re already paying for it. If that money goes to the government in taxes rather than to pay more to an insurance company in premiums for less care, then I’m okay with that. Whoever can provide me with the most care for the least cost is the winner, and either way, I’m fine with paying for it. Just give me what I pay for.

  I read a rather humorous error by a conservative columnist a couple weeks ago. They stated the Stephen Hawking would not survive in the UK under “rationing” because with his condition he would not be considered a person of value. The problem is that Hawking is in fact British and is considered to have defied the odds in comparison to others with his condition under the UK’s plan. In fact, just a few months back, he had to receive treatment after being rushed to the hospital. The irony is that under the U.S. private insurers, he would likely have not qualified for private care at all with his condition.

  JBFREE, I’m sure you’re interested in clarification on what is and isn’t in HB 3200. If that is indeed the case, FactCheck.org (as well as many other fact checking sites) has an excellent write up on what is and isn’t true from BOTH sides of the aisle. You can also check out the Kaiser Family Foundation website to see a comparison of all (I believe 12) proposals. I only say this because I’ve noticed that you did have quite a bit of bad iformation that you seem to believe is true. I really hope you’ll be open enough to check those sites to see that these things just aren’t true. Sure, there’s plenty to criticize, but some of the things you mentioned aren’t there and only masks what might be a legitimate concern.

  As a plus… Fact Check is VERY easy to read in comparison to a bill, though I am able to actually sit down and read legislation with no issues of my own. It just makes it a lot easier to consume for most other folks. Hope that helps.

• CLD // Aug 19, 2009 at 10:57 PM

  Whew…thougt this was the comment section. Gee folks, the best blogs are just that. See Seth Godin, we seem to have too many words, too mnay topics. All I wrote about was that “THEY” work for us….I need a nap…

  “Brevity is the soul of wit”

• bad dog // Aug 19, 2009 at 11:40 PM

  @CLD: Dispelling ignorance sometimes takes a lot of words. Especially right winger ignorance. So much propaganda, so little time…

  @Bama, who says, “As to the teleprompter… Obama is certainly not the first or the last speaker to use a teleprompter. Sarah Palin, John McCain, both Bushes, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, and Jimmy Carter all used teleprompters and have been photographed several times doing so. Even the talking heads like Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity use teleprompters. Whatever makes Obama’s prompter special is beyond me. It makes a nice thing to jab him about, though, and there are worse things a person could be jabbed on.”

  Great post, man. But nobody’s listening to this part. This is Propaganda 101. Hit your opponent in his strengths and caricature him in a way that is emotionally satisfied to dopes who crave emotional satisfaction over being informed. This is how Al Gore became a fibber, John Kerry became a coward, Obama became a speaker who can only function with the help of a teleprompter. You take your opponent’s perceived strengths, and you attack them as weak using big lies that the dittoheads and right wing media echo chamber all too eagerly believe and pass on.

  I don’t blame the propagandists, as what they’re doing is working because they playing to win. Liberals may want to solve problems, but right wingers play to win, as winning is more important than their own wallets, truth, their own liberty, etc. As long as they feel emotionally satisfied by what they are told by their favorite authority figure, they are okay with giving up anything.

  The people I do blame are the idiots who eager swallow every lie they’re told and then try to force their crap on everybody else. This is why I no longer take JBFree seriously. He pretends he’s a moderate. He pretends he wants a real solution to the healthcare debate. But he spouts off irrelevant lying nonsense about a teleprompter. Where is the common ground? Why should I even bother?

  Until these people suffer a little for lying–lies that hurt other people–they will just keep doing it.

• CLD // Aug 20, 2009 at 8:49 AM

  Sir, you would be an excellent member of the U.S. democrat party, that is if you lived here…

  Demonizing everyone and every idea you disagree with, perfect example of a progressive/liberal. Its funny how “right wing propoganda” is any different than left wing ideas with good intentions gone array (ie. welfare, social security, health care bills, public schools, cash of clunkers, and on and on).

  You sir, illustrate why we have such divide in the country south of you, that one that used to be home of the “free” and the brave. You are a microcosm of our congress, our political parties, and the town halls meetings. Two sides, not listening, calling each other, “ignorant”. How about misguided, ill informed, or is that too close to stepping across the line Mr. Dog…?

  You claim your imploding single payer healthcare system is “great”, but when I point out real evidence, not just your “propoganda”, your pompous response is, “there is no perfect system CLD”…

  Again, the blinders on mentality is destroying the country, but of course, you live in utopia, so what does it matter…

• bad dog // Aug 20, 2009 at 3:35 PM

  @CLD, who apparently attacks people even though he doesn’t read their posts, read very carefully the following:

  I am a Democrat. I am a U.S. citizen. I have lived in Canada since 2003.

  Got it? Now let me repeat:

  I am a Democrat. I am a U.S. citizen. I have lived in Canada since 2003.

  Oh wait, you still don’t have it.

  I am a Democrat. I am a U.S. citizen. I have lived in Canada since 2003.

  You still have a puzzled look on your face …

  I am a Democrat. I am a U.S. citizen. I have lived in Canada since 2003.

  There! We did it!

• bad dog // Aug 20, 2009 at 3:44 PM

  @CLD, that glutton for punishment, coming back for another thrashing, who says, “Demonizing everyone and every idea you disagree with, perfect example of a progressive/liberal.”

  And the apple calls the orange red.

  You do a great job demonizing yourself. You may think your ranting attack posts are witty, but they honestly make you look like just another town hall lunatic. All that’s missing are glaring capitals and death threats. You would do better if you stopped trying to rile me, which you cannot do, and focused on presenting your side’s ideas. Because all you’re doing right now is making right wingers look like idiots.

  “Its funny how “right wing propoganda” is any different than left wing ideas with good intentions gone array (ie. welfare, social security, health care bills, public schools, cash of clunkers, and on and on).”

  I don’t know what you’re talking about. On the one side, you have lazy right wingers who would rather listen to Rush Limbaugh than actually become informed, dittoing their talking points about death panels and government takeover of the health system, all of which are proven false. And on the other side, I make a case for why we need social programs. Either make a case why you think if a terminally ill person can’t afford healthcare, he should die, or shut up. It really is that simple.

  “You sir, illustrate why we have such divide in the country south of you, that one that used to be home of the “free” and the brave.”

  So you’re saying Americans aren’t free and brave. Wow, you talk like you want the terrorists to win, like we deserve to be attacked. Why do you hate America so much, CLD?

  “You are a microcosm of our congress, our political parties, and the town halls meetings. Two sides, not listening, calling each other, “ignorant”. How about misguided, ill informed, or is that too close to stepping across the line Mr. Dog…?”

  Do you want me to quote you again? Then everybody can see what you mean by civil discourse. You ranting like a nut about Sally’s two moms.

  “You claim your imploding single payer healthcare system is “great”, but when I point out real evidence, not just your “propoganda”, your pompous response is, “there is no perfect system CLD”…”

  There is no perfect system, CLD.

  Oh, and it’s not imploding. Still waiting for that evidence you speak of.

  “Again, the blinders on mentality is destroying the country, but of course, you live in utopia, so what does it matter…”

  Holy crap this is boring. Say something new once in a while. k?

• JBFREE // Aug 20, 2009 at 8:39 PM

  @Bad Dog, This has been really entertaining observing the left and right bash each other. Ego gone wild. To respond to your last bashing:

  “This is why I no longer take JBFree seriously. He pretends he’s a moderate. He pretends he wants a real solution to the healthcare debate. But he spouts off irrelevant lying nonsense about a teleprompter.”

  I regret the teleprompter statement because it was off topic. I will still say that Obama’s speeches do not impress me at all. And my instincts tell me he is as useless as Bush (our last several Presidents and Obama are just puppets to special interests).

  Honestly I am a moderate / independent and would like to see a sensible solution to the health care debate. I also must say, hurray (hopefully) as Obama and the Dems have been slowed down, not by Republicans because they have no power quite frankly. This health care bill is being slowed down BECAUSE OF THE PEOPLE speaking up. Thank God! I continue to pray it is slowed down. Perhaps there is a reasonable solution but I still fear any highly government controlled program because the government has a really bad track record of running things.

  As for solving problems, as I noted earlier, it is very easy in business and my line of work. I can find the facts and the truth (sometimes it takes a little digging). However, in politics, with so many special interests on both sides involved . . . forget it! There is so much BS being spread on both sides and it takes months and lots of research from so many angles to even get close to the truth. Do you really think your sources are 100% correct?

  @CLD, Yes I remember MAK. He was highly educated, really tried to do his research, had some value, but, in the end, as you know, his ego was huge and he would never admit when he was wrong. And he was wrong many times. It is so sad to see so many out there with such pumped up egos and zero humility. Sorry Bad Dog but, from what I have seen so far, with all the barking and biting . .. you are an MAK … and you give me an MAK headache! I do respect that you appear to do your research but I will never respect your huge ego, lack of humility, and tendency to bite before you listen. I wonder how many others on this blog feel the same way. Or perhaps they all believe EVERYTHING you say.

• CLD // Aug 20, 2009 at 11:48 PM

  Hey JB…I hear ya man, but remember the saying, “you cant teach an old Dog new tricks”…well this guy has so many “old ones”, you know, stereotypes of the other side, that we are wasting our time. No matter what you say, evidence about the failing Canadian health care system all over the news, he denies….Denial, the main characteristic of a demented mind….He is making it boring and no longer enjoyable to comment on GTL. Sad, but true, but like most insance liberals, that was probably his intent from the start…just ignore him, history will prove him wrong…oh wait, it already has…

• CLD // Aug 21, 2009 at 12:13 AM

  PS JB, about your MAK comment, your correct, I too get a “MAK headache” from the idiot Dogs rants…all ego, all denial, all the time. I quite frankly have had enough of hime. Hell, just turn on MSNBC or CNN, NPR or NBC, any day every day. No difference, same talking points, same bias, same denial. Boring, irritating, and lame. Might be time to find more intelligent and informed life on the internet….

• bad dog // Aug 21, 2009 at 3:24 AM

  @JBFree, who says, “Sorry Bad Dog but, from what I have seen so far, with all the barking and biting . .. you are an MAK …”

  I don’t care what you think of me. But I like your latest post a lot. Less talk about teleprompters, less talking points, more real questions and discussion. Good on ya.

• bad dog // Aug 21, 2009 at 3:29 AM

  @CLD, who says, “I too get a “MAK headache” from the idiot Dogs rants…all ego, all denial, all the time …”

  You whine like a little girl. You add nothing to this blog, from the nonsensical ranting arguments you make in your column to your little public asides with other commenters to your shrill personal attacks that are all talking points and no substance. All you bring to this blog is a hatred of anything you’ve been told is liberal. Frankly, you suck. So grow up, act like a man for once, and stop embarrassing yourself.

• CLD // Aug 21, 2009 at 5:13 AM

  embarrass this Wikepedia boy…

  http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUSINESS06/908200420/1319/

  You can sure dish it out but cant take it. ANd what may I ask to you contribute to this blog? Chasing away Doomed, JB, and now me….So much for bi-partisanship. “You suck”..how mature of you….Maybe you need to go see one of your Canadian doctors and get some Xanax or something, or would you have to wait too long….”Dog”…bye bye, as you so feminely say

• bad dog // Aug 21, 2009 at 12:44 PM

  @CLD: You whine like a little girl. You add nothing to this blog, from the nonsensical ranting arguments you make in your column to your little public asides with other commenters to your shrill personal attacks that are all talking points and no substance. All you bring to this blog is a hatred of anything you’ve been told is liberal. Frankly, you suck. So grow up, act like a man for once, and stop embarrassing yourself.

  The correct usage, by the way, is “buh-bye.”

  Buh-bye.

• JBFree // Aug 21, 2009 at 4:00 PM

  @Bad Dog . . . if you, GTL, CLD, and I sat down and talked in person, took the time to really get to know one another, we’d find out that you are probably mid left / liberal, GTL slightly left of center, JBFree slightly right of center, and CLD mid right / conservative. We’d find 4 intelligent people who got caught in a very interesting trap. That trap is email / blog = non-personal, non-immediate interactional. Emails and blogs are interesting and helpful but often things are written that would not be written if the conversation was on the phone or face to face. Often through emails and blogs massive misunderstandings occur, people get mad, and, because there is no penalty / no real accountability (except to the GTL who has the power to ban us from this blog), one can say whatever one wants to say.

  I have said some things I regret and I come from a religious foundation and very strong family. I am going to stop the insults and bickering immediately.

  I am also leaving this blog for good. As interesting as politics and blogging is, there is a life to live and I have talents that belong elsewhere.

  I need to work my local corner of the world politically. I also need to live life, help others, and enjoy life now because as my mother told me 2 years ago as I was watching my father die slowly of a horrible disease, “dead is forever.” A close friend of mine had a sister who was 47. She was a little overweight and stressed out from her job. She stopped at the hospital early this week because she was not feeling right. She went into cardiac arrest and she is now dead.

  Life is too short for bickering and name calling. Debate is good but when it morphs to bashing one another, that is just not right.

  I will leave you with my closing thoughts: Many people on the left, right, and center are really running on bad or incomplete information / inputs. Garbage in equals garbage spewed out (on blogs). It really takes extensive research on political topics to get anywhere near the truth. Solving problems in business and private industry is really easy because you can find the truth. Solving problems in our government and politics will take very strong leadership by people who (a) have achieved true success in business, (b) have credible experience in fiscal responsibility / economics, (c) are ethical / moral / honest people, (d) know how to inspire a Team and build concensus, (e) know how to put a truly independent / objective / non-biased hat on, and (f) have a strong passion and desire for positive, helpful change.

  In all honesty I do not see this leadership in the past Bush admin nor this current admin. I do not see it with the Democrats in congress nor the existing Republicans. What annoys me most is that there are solid, upstanding, credible people in the USA who could run for office, get the PEOPLE behind them, and really make a difference. However, because of (a) lack of money, (b) fear of what happens to you as a politician = people dig up all past skeletons and smear you, and (c) the disgusting reality of political party pressure once you are elected . . . the solid leaders remain hidden in private industry or in government jobs . .. fearful to step forward, apathetic, and frustrated. I do pray that somehow we get some real leaders to step forward soon.

  With all the flaws and problems and bickering, there is hope. The USA still has an excellent design . . . checks and balances . . . freedom . .. capitalism . . . good natured people . . . creativity . . . and tremendous passion.

  Best wishes to all. JBFree.

• bad dog // Aug 21, 2009 at 7:29 PM

  @JBFree, who says, “If you, GTL, CLD, and I sat down and talked in person …”

  I have pointed out many times I’m not here to make friends. I’m here to make war on bad ideas.

  For eight years, the civility you wish were here was nowhere to be found in public discourse in America. Liberals who said the U.S. should not invade Iraq were called traitors. The liberals were proven right. Liberals who said the tax cuts for the rich and pullback of business regulation were dangerous for the government budget and economy were called traitors. The liberals were proven right. Liberals who said the Bush Administration was using terror alerts for political purposes, cynically exploiting our fears after 9/11, were called traitors. The liberals were proven right. Liberals who said the Bush Administration is gutting the Constitution were called traitors. The liberals were proven right.

  Now, suddenly, conservatives are interested in a civil debate? Okay, then bring it on. Have a real conversation. I’ve said this many times on this blog, if you have an original thought, share it, and I’ll take you on in a good, fair fight. But come here spouting off garbage about liberal this, and liberal that, and spread lies and talking points, and I am going to come after you tooth and nail. We had to eat sh*t from liars from eight years, and now we’re sick of it–and instead of enjoying a nice hot cup of STFU, the right wingers instead are turning up the volume and producing lies and screaming them at even faster rate.

  Look at my conversations with other conservatives on this site, the ones who aren’t here purely to promote talking points because they’re too lazy, as you pointed out, to do the research themselves and have an original thought. Half the time I know what people here are going to say before they write it. You can see it coming miles away. The ones who have original thoughts and want a real conversation, I have a real conversation with.

  Case in point. As soon as you said you regretted the nonsense about Obama and teleprompters, which I’ve now heard from no fewer than three conservative commenters here in this little microcosm of the right wing media echo chamber, I said, good for you, let’s have a chat.

  CLD, on the other hand, is a lost cause to me. We started off fighting, then he showed a lot of class, then after that I got under his skin and now he lies awake every night sweating, mouthing perfect comebacks in the dark. He’s turned into pure bluster, and basically has nothing to say. His columns aren’t much better. Just ongoing howling attacks at how evil liberals are. Come on, that’s so 2001-2008. It’s time to grow up.

  So I think you meant to address your parting remarks to CLD, not me. I’m perfectly happy to have a conversation, and there is evidence of that everywhere on this site if you look. But I’m not interested in putting up with lies, talking points, personal attacks, sniveling asides with other commenters talking about me in third person, and whiny attempts to get me banned.

  Man up and converse, or repeat obnoxious talking points about teleprompters, death panels, evil liberals, etc. and receive my bark, bite, urine up your leg, whatever you want to call it.

  But if you got to go because of time issues, I understand. I can only contribute as much as I do myself because I type fast.

  Have a good one, and come back anytime.

• JBFree // Aug 21, 2009 at 8:41 PM

  @Bad Dog, your following quotes concern me:

  “I have pointed out many times I’m not here to make friends. I’m here to make war on bad ideas.”

  Does slamming people comply to the GTL blog rules of conduct?

  “I am going to come after you tooth and nail. We had to eat sh*t from liars from eight years, and now we’re sick of it”

  Who is the angry, frustrated person here? Commenters or you?

  “Half the time I know what people here are going to say before they write it.”

  Boy that sure is a big ego you have. You can forsee the future? Can you give me some stock tips?

  “Look at my conversations with other conservatives on this site” “I’m perfectly happy to have a conversation, and there is evidence of that everywhere on this site if you look”

  I have looked at many of your conversations and I see you as very testy, with an ego, quickly attacking others . . . not so sure this complies to the GTL blog rules of conduct.

  “CLD, on the other hand, is a lost cause to me. We started off fighting, then he showed a lot of class, then after that I got under his skin and now he lies awake every night sweating, mouthing perfect comebacks in the dark. He’s turned into pure bluster, and basically has nothing to say. His columns aren’t much better.”

  I have to disagree because I find that CLD is a good writer and has produced some good thought provoking posts. Do you really think he lies awake thinking up responses? Come on already! I think that you lie awake day and night looking for fights on the GTL blog . . . again does this comply with basic rules of decency / codes of conduct for the GTL blog?

  Sorry Bad Dog but I will not be silent when I see such bashing on the GTL blog. There should be rules of conduct followed or the GTL should ban anyone who starts getting out of hand.

  Back to my comment #60: That trap is email / blog = non-personal, non-immediate interactional. Emails and blogs are interesting and helpful but often things are written that would not be written if the conversation was on the phone or face to face. Often through emails and blogs massive misunderstandings occur, people get mad, and, because there is no penalty / no real accountability.

  @GTL: What are you going to do about better rules of conduct for EVERYONE posting on your blog? I think it is time for GTL to man up and put an end to the bashing that occurs here.

  I’m out . . . Best Wishes to all! Remember to spend more time face to face with your family, friends, and business acquaintences . .. less time on the internet, blogs, watching TV … watching life from the sidelines artificially.

• bad dog // Aug 21, 2009 at 9:59 PM

  @JBFree, who says, “Does slamming people comply to the GTL blog rules of conduct?”

  Yes. Next question.

  “Who is the angry, frustrated person here? Commenters or you?”

  Who cares? Next question.

  “Boy that sure is a big ego you have. You can forsee the future? Can you give me some stock tips?”

  Actually it’s not a testament to how smart I am, it’s a testament to how easy it is to predict what right wingers are going to say. For example, I knew you weren’t actually leaving, that you would be back to continue whining about civility. No, I can’t give you stock tips. Next question.

  “I have looked at many of your conversations and I see you as very testy, with an ego, quickly attacking others . . . not so sure this complies to the GTL blog rules of conduct.”

  First of all, you are personally attacking me, which is a violation of GTL’s rules of conduct. Second of all, you coming after me instead of CLD tells me that you’re not interested in civil debate at all. You just want to attack the nearest liberal and try to get him banned like the whiny little crybaby you obviously are.

  “I have to disagree because I find that CLD is a good writer and has produced some good thought provoking posts.”

  Wow! You’re a right winger and you love other right wingers when they’re abusive, and hate the liberal when he dishes it back? At the risk of sounding egotistical, may I just say I predicted that coming, too? I must be a prophet.

  “Do you really think he lies awake thinking up responses? Come on already!”

  Are you really this gullible?

  “I think that you lie awake day and night looking for fights on the GTL blog . . . again does this comply with basic rules of decency / codes of conduct for the GTL blog?”

  Why don’t you little crybabies let GTL worry about and enforce his code of conduct? But if we’re going to start complaining, how about CLD calling me an “idiot,” for one small example? I’m sure you found that “thought provoking,” but it was a personal attack in violation of GTL rules. So keep whining like a little girl about code of conduct, and I’ll start reporting every single thing on this site I find offensive and try to get all of you banned. K?

  “Sorry Bad Dog but I will not be silent when I see such bashing on the GTL blog.”

  God, is this ever going to end? Harps, violins, puddles of tears, puppies in danger, concern trolling. What a drama. I have one last prediction: Keep this up and you’ll be a shoe-in for the Oscar.

  Oh, but weren’t you leaving?

  “There should be rules of conduct followed or the GTL should ban anyone who starts getting out of hand.”

  Say the word and I’ll start complaining.

  Weren’t you leaving?

  “@GTL: What are you going to do about better rules of conduct for EVERYONE posting on your blog? I think it is time for GTL to man up and put an end to the bashing that occurs here.”

  I think it’s time for you to give up expressing your one-sided, double-standard fake “concern.”

  Again, weren’t you leaving?

  “I’m out . . . Best Wishes to all! Remember to spend more time face to face with your family, friends, and business acquaintences . .. less time on the internet, blogs, watching TV … watching life from the sidelines artificially.”

  Come back anytime, you bleeding heart champion of downtrodden right wing blog commenters against a big bad evil lib.

• JBFree // Aug 21, 2009 at 10:35 PM

  @Bad Dog . . . keep barking, you just keep burying yourself deeper in your own dog doo . . . you really have anger issues dude, big ones . . . always in a fighting / barking mode . . . and such an ego, no humility, and intelligence you say you have? I’ve not seen any of that from you, especially in your last responses. And you keep putting me in a box of liberal bashers? That seems to be a common response from you, pointing to the past Bush admin, accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being a whacko right winger. Boy are you predictable and out to lunch.

  @GTL . . wow, you have a real classy blog now . . . thanks to your rabid dog on the loose. . . and still no codes of conduct?

  Don’t worry . . . this is my last post

• CLD // Aug 21, 2009 at 11:08 PM

  Amen JB…Amen. So much for finding common ground. Continue on barking into the echo chamber Dog.

• bad dog // Aug 21, 2009 at 11:14 PM

  @JBFree: Thanks for personally attacking me just before you whine about me allegedly personally attacking you and then running to the nearest mommy figure. I know right wingers have massive self awareness issues, but at least TRY. That advice is my parting gift to you. No need to thank me.

  “Don’t worry …. this is my last post.”

  Stay or go, I don’t care. I’m sure you’ll be back. You’ll see. You’ve got the itch already.

  Parting thought: I wonder if GTL would consider implementing a “no whining like a girl” policy?

• bad dog // Aug 21, 2009 at 11:16 PM

  @CLD, who says, “Continue on barking into the echo chamber Dog”:

  Okay, I will, as long as you promise to keep whining like a little girl about it. Deal?

• CLD // Aug 21, 2009 at 11:37 PM

  Hey, JBFree, sorry for introducing you to what used to be a great site for healthy debate, differing sides of the political spectrum, and an experiment in both sides co-existing. But hey, you got him to respond again, what an easy mark. Oh yea, and he used the “whining little girl” comment again. Seems he really lines using that line…? God bless JB, and sorry again. Thanks for commmenting with so many great, thoughtful, and insightful posts. I apologize for the lack of manners on this site, and for those that promote it….Too bad its now about some “Dog” and not the issues…typical radical left…

• bad dog // Aug 22, 2009 at 12:47 AM

  @CLD, who says, “Sorry for introducing you to what used to be a great site …”

  It’s not very cool to attack a great blog that GTL has created here simply because you can’t stop coming at me for a daily thrashing. I mean, here’s a liberal blogger who gives you a home for you to spout off your radical right wing views, takes time out to have some beers with you, even plays along with your claim of being “moderately right of center,” and your way of thanking him is to fill up his comments with blathering personal attacks against me and then trash his site when you come out on the losing end every time–even with your friend backing you up.

  Not cool. I think you should apologize to GTL.

• JBFree // Aug 22, 2009 at 9:02 AM

  @CLD, so there you were writing your column for the GTL on your ship the SS CLD. You were in new waters and the Bad Dog saw this immediately, and because deep down he is an insecure bully, he came over in his massive ship the SS Bad Dog and started firing cannon balls at you. You responded with your own cannon fire. I was underwater in my submarine, the SS JBFree and surfaced to see what was going on. After trying to reason with the SS Bad Dog it quickly became apparent that a few torpedoes were in order. After a few exchanges with this enormous ship (enormous ego), the SS Bad Dog, I decided it was time to leave. However, before leaving I took my sub behind the scenes of the SS Bad Dog just to see what actually was going on. Behind the massive ship and tall sails, what I found was exactly what my instincts were telling me. There he was the big bad captain Bad Dog, sitting in a dingy attached to an elaborate façade ship that he constantly kept turned towards his audience to give the impression that his ship was magnificent and powerful.

  I’ve dealt with bullies before CLD, in my youth. There is only one way to deal with them. Get in their face and take them out quickly. What we should do is carefully analyze all of his comments, run them against fact check, and also review how he has handled anyone in his waters with an opposing view. What we would find is that some of his facts are correct and he has done a lot of work and homework. However, we’d also find many flaws in his posts and definitely lots of ego, lots of talking down to people, downplaying their points, insulting them, etc.

  However, in this case, I don’t have the time or energy to argue with a very angry liberal who has a huge ego and huge chip on his shoulder. I’ve seen the real Bad Dog. I’ve seen enough. He’s in a dingy behind the façade of a huge ship barking and biting anyone in what he feels are his waters. Deep down, like all bullies, he is insecure, angry, and craving attention and praise.

  @Bad Dog . . . I think that you should apologize to yourself. Stop insulting people, bashing opposing views, pretending that this blog is your turf, and acting like a bully. “Bad Dog! Bad! . . . sit down and play nice! Stop your bad behavior!

• bad dog // Aug 22, 2009 at 1:17 PM

  @JBFree: You should apologize to yourself and to me. You join up with the site’s resident bully, who can’t fight his own fights by himself so he brings you in to concern troll and whine to the admin. You act like you want a discussion while dropping talking points. You have sniveling asides with CLD where you attack another commenter. You finally drop the talking points and just when I say good for you, great, let’s have a civil debate (56). But that’s not why you’re here. So you switch up, act put upon, make a big production of leaving (didn’t I predict you’d be back? Still want those stock tips?). You don’t leave, but instead keep coming back to personally insult me, lament civil discourse, make lame attempts to get me banned (part of which is threatening to quit), and whine like a little girl who can’t get her way.

  Here’s a suggestion for you. Leave:

  JBFree in 60: “I am also leaving this blog for good.”

  JBFree in 62: “I’m out . . .”

  JBFree in 64: “Don’t worry . . . this is my last post.”

  JBFree in 70: “Bad Dog! Bad! . . . sit down and play nice! Stop your bad behavior!”

  Here’s another suggestion. Have real principles and apply them to your buddy CLD:

  CLD in 26: “See, here is your problem (or should I say only one that many observe) … Keep drinking your Canadian Kool aid, and bashing everyone else. Where did you get all your degrees on “everything”… Heres another one, try keeping your irrational retorts to under 1000 words. Lsst point…You may be the enlightened one, with your multi-paragraph answers to all Liberal, but the average American, loses you after the first paragraph…HEY, you would be a great politician…blah, blah, blah, complicated policy, defensive, authoritarian, and oh yea, Canadian…the Perfect politican…:

  CLD in 35: “Hey JBFREE…remind you of someone…MAK…has all the answers, goes off on bizzare tangents, and puts down everyone with a differetn view. Oh by the way, so much for his “Canadian health care system”…what a blow hard…”

  CLD in 36: “Hey GTL, my screen saver keeps kicking on everytime the B.D.(boring dog)comments…any suggestions on new setting, he even bores my PC to death…how about limiting the word count for comments? Maybe we could limit the “ball hog” from putting us all to sleep…?…zzzzzz”

  CLD in 54: “Denial, the main characteristic of a demented mind….He is making it boring and no longer enjoyable to comment on GTL. Sad, but true, but like most insance liberals, that was probably his intent from the start…just ignore him, history will prove him wrong…oh wait, it already has…”

  CLD in 55: “PS JB, about your MAK comment, your correct, I too get a “MAK headache” from the idiot Dogs rants…all ego, all denial, all the time. I quite frankly have had enough of hime. Hell, just turn on MSNBC or CNN, NPR or NBC, any day every day. No difference, same talking points, same bias, same denial. Boring, irritating, and lame. Might be time to find more intelligent and informed life on the internet…”

  If you think I’m the bad guy when CLD is actually the site’s resident bully, then you’re either faking or clueless. Which is it?

  I’m waiting for that apology. So is GTL. But really you should apologize to yourself for giving somebody grief because you have a double standard. Or you could just leave as you promised to do many times, even though the yearning to keep coming back to whine like a girl must be powerful.

• bad dog // Aug 22, 2009 at 1:17 PM

  P.S. Brilliant analogy about the ships, though. You really nailed it.

• JBFree // Aug 22, 2009 at 5:02 PM

  @Bad Dog, you seem to forget that right from the beginning in post 7 you insult me several times, just like the bully you are. Let me quote you:

  “Once again, a right winger who thinks the Bill of Rights is the Bill of Rights for Republicans Only. The arrogance of these people is astounding.”

  And then your arrogance and talking down to people:

  “If you don’t understand the difference, I will explain it to you.” “Maybe if right wingers actually did shut up and listen”

  And it just keeps going from there in your following comments to anything I said, with more of your ego, arrogance, talking down to people, etc. You attacked me right out of the gate then continued your attack like a rabid bad dog.

  I think that you are the resident bully (sitting in a dingy putting out the illusion of a magnificent ship to all those gullible enough to accept all your pontifications).

  What I see is you as the resident bully. What I hear is you as the school girl whining and trying to get attention.

  Glad you liked my analogy Captain Bad Dog, bully in a dingy!

• Fandb // Aug 22, 2009 at 6:18 PM

  JBFree, just remember, he left the U.S. for Canada years ago.

  ‘Nuff said.

• bad dog // Aug 22, 2009 at 6:28 PM

  @FandB: Don’t talk with your mouth full.

• Fandb // Aug 22, 2009 at 6:36 PM

  Bad Dog: Don’t try to tell me what to do.

• bad dog // Aug 22, 2009 at 9:25 PM

  @FandB: Too late!

• bad dog // Aug 22, 2009 at 9:29 PM

  @JBFree: Grow up. You whine like a little girl.

• bad dog // Aug 22, 2009 at 10:45 PM

  @FandB: I ORDER you to keep commenting on this blog and recite right wing talking points!

• JBFree // Aug 23, 2009 at 9:25 AM

  @FanB . .. thanks for the support. Below is who I am, honest, able to admit my mistakes, and hopeful for the future but not compromising on my beliefs.

  @Bad Dog and @GTL. I will apologize for allowing my emotions to get the best of me and saying some things that should not have been said, engaging in exchanges of insults. I should have simply left the battlefield a long time ago. However Bad Dog talked down to me, insulted me, and attacked me first.

  I will not apologize for defending myself or my beliefs. I believe in God and the principles of Christianity. I believe in America, capitalism, and the power of the free enterprise system. I am currently a highly respected quality and productivity improvement manager on the executive team of a small, non-union, high precision parts manufacturer. My company President is very credible and ethical. We just took our employees out for a wonderful celebration day at the track followed by dinner. There will be bonuses for all and in the future this will become an employee owned company. Those who perform will be rewarded. Those who do not perform will be given plenty of opportunity to improve and then removed if they do not improve. Our employees are motivated, inspired, paid very well, have good medical benefits, and they have a say in the decisions. We also have American and Canadian suppliers and do not plan to go overseas for supply. We are an American company helping America (and Canada). So, not all corporations are bad. In fact, there are many just like this one, profitable, fair, ethical, and socially responsible. I do think that we do need government controls, but limited government with checks and balances as designed by our founding fathers years ago. Government controls do help keep corporations honest. It does make me sick to see many USA companies going overseas because there are few government controls overseas, especially in Asia where child labor, lack of pollution controls, and bad business practices are allowed to exist. What our government needs to do is establish good controls in the USA but not over-tax, over-spend, over-regulate small business. As of today my little company is actually thriving because of our leadership team and ability to find good data and make good fact based decisions. However, especially in the dysfunctional state of New York, we are starting to really feel the pain of high tax and excessive regulations. Many good mfg companies have left NY over the years and this must stop. NY State is a perfect example of why we need to be very careful if we are to allow government to try and run too many things at once.

  As for me leaving this blog, I was on my way out but Bad Dog continued to fire cannons and drop depth charges at me so I am not leaving until this stops. And hopefully it will stop.

  I am a humble individual and will admit that I do not have extensive political wisdom. What I do have is business sense, fiscal responsibility, an objective mind, and desire to see solutions that come from the center (not the far left or far right). As I said in other posts finding facts in business is relatively easy, finding facts in the political world takes extensive research because of all the garbage information out there on the networks, newspapers, public radio, the internet, and other news sources.

  Again I do apologize for allowing my emotions to take over in past comments and I do admit that I do not know it all. Is Bad Dog willing to admit that he does not know it all and should not bark at everyone (talk down to them) and bite anyone with an opposing view expressed on this blog?

• bad dog // Aug 23, 2009 at 12:30 PM

  Holy crap.