On Obama Vs. Torture III: CIA Agents Now Afraid To Accept Future Felonious Assignments Due To Administration’s Reaction To Cheney-Bush Torture Memos

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• Blogger Rise
  6:03 am on April 23rd, 2009 1

  if not Obama so who we can trust for that???

• Joe Lovell
  11:55 am on April 23rd, 2009 2

  A big difference between, say, WWII and now is the media. Durng WWII, even if a reporter had gotten hold of information, he, or his editor, would have kept it under wraps. There was a sense of nationalism and responsibility. Now, the media seems intent, or did during Bush II, on bringing down the administration and the nation. And under the guise of ‘the peoples right to know’ it gets spun, spindled, and twisted to show the US in the worst possible light.

  Look at the hoo-rah after that tsunami. The media had a field day slamming the US because it sent WARSHIPS. What the media DIDN’T report was the logistical and medical support those eeee-viiilll WARSHIPS represented. Doctors, operating rooms, hospital facilities, desalinization plants, huge generating capacity to get at least some power back to the port cities. Choppers for SAR & medivac. Food. Nope, bad nasty United States was stupid enough to think that air strikes were needed. Or so it was reported.

• Joe Lovell
  11:58 am on April 23rd, 2009 3

  OH, I’ll be away until Sunday night. Have a good weekend everyone. Get to go burn about 30 pounds of Holy Black and teach school kids, and public, some truth about the Civil War. Maybe talk some about the Richmond Howitzers – and its Black Confederate battery.

• Fandb
  8:12 pm on April 23rd, 2009 4

  Only in the light of Obama’s larger scale agenda do all of these actions make sense. The U.S. would never accept being governed by a higher authority, that is, a World government, unless the We The People lose all faith in our Constitution and our ability to govern ourselves through it.

  Obama, the great deceiver, the great divider, is splintering our country and destroying our faith in each other.

  His campaign of “hope” has turned into an agenda of hopelessness. His campaign of “change” intends to change our government and our way of life.

  The best way to splinter two groups, to drive a wedge between them, is through false accusations, innuendo, and half-truths. These have become Obama’s and his administration’s method of operating. Since he took office, there has been a barrage of these falsehoods, one after the other. He has lied about the economy, he has lied about the conditions in Iraq and Afghanistan, he is producing only part of the relevant documents related to operational intelligence from the Bush Administration, he has even publicly chastised the U.S. while standing on foreign soil.

  This is because he has no loyalty to this country, he has no loyalty to our Constitution, and he has no loyalty to We The People.

  Obama’s next goal is to become President of the World, and he knows the only way to do this is by destroying the U.S. as the one great super-power by destroying the faith of the people.

  As for me, I will put my faith in the wisdom brought to us by the Founding Fathers, not the evil brought to us by Obama.

• Ole Blue
  8:13 pm on April 23rd, 2009 5

  When I was in the Army the penalty of Court Martial was the consequences of disobeying the Geneva Conventions. I say let the heads roll.

• Fandb
  8:42 pm on April 23rd, 2009 6

  The Geneva Conventions do not apply in this case. The detainees were not uniformed soldiers, they do not represent a country or government, and they are not signatories to the Conventions.

• Ole Blue
  9:30 pm on April 23rd, 2009 7

  The Geneva Conventions apply to all civilians and military. There is no other designation. That is one of the ways the Bush administration attempted to bypass the Geneva Conventions by giving the individuals involved in the war a different designation than civilian or military.

  The United States military, which I was a part for nine years (military Intelligence…make your Oxymoron joke here) and am now an American Legion member, states that anyone with a weapon is military and should be treated with the same provisions as the Geneva Conventions states for Military.

• The GTL™
  1:01 am on April 24th, 2009 8

  Alright, Joe — have a good one and please be sure to come back and tell us about it, or even feel free to be our guest poster for next weekend? Travel well and keep thine powder dry

• Fandb
  1:31 pm on April 25th, 2009 9

  So, if a member of the military is shot by a criminal outside his base, that would be “friendly fire” and the criminal would be considered “military” according to your definition, Ole Blue.

  According to the Geneva Conventions, the terrorists are not covered for the reasons I mentioned above.

• susan28
  4:06 am on April 26th, 2009 10

  well now i know if i ever need some scratch i can just rob your house while you’re out of town, and as long as you don’t know who did it or miss what i take, then all’s well? don’t worry, i won’t take the cash from the mattress, i’ll hit the dark recesses of the boxspring where you keep the big bills – the really *important* ones you won’t miss until you really need them – kinda like, oh, i dunno, THE 4TH AMENDMENT? and by that i mean the PRACTICE of it, not the “tactful” subversion of it or the “comforting lie” of it; to answer the classic question: yes, if a tree falls in the woods it DOES make a sound no matter who’s there to hear, and if the 4A is violated secretly, we’re just as raped as if we or a patriotic – and by that i mean “cares more about principle than survival” – reporter busted the perp after the fact. you knock some chick out, rape her, then patch her up and drop her back in her bed, she’s still raped even if she don’t know the better (or if you forbade her to tell anyone under penalty of the law you’re flouting), same with the 4th amendment, if my privacy CAN be violated – and by that i mean no enforceable legal remedies to stop it – then that privacy only exists as privilege – which is to say not at all – and i will ALWAYS consider any government official (be it the orderer or the orderee) who violates it for ANY reason – even to “Save America(tm)” – an enemy combatant worthy of the worst their own henchmen can dish out.

  if this sort of “covertly” having our principles violated and being told “noble lies” by our pols is truly required to keep us “safe”, then i humbly proffer my wrists to you here and now and request the mercy of you putting me out of my misery by SLITTING them rather than subject me to one more moment of this apologism for legal hypocrisy.

  you got one thing right: we’ve always done it. all of it. “waterboarding” is a limited hangout, we do much worse – ask any Nicaraguan – not to mention the CIA being a major drug trafficker (their one *redeeming* quality, imo, but again, a lil heavy on the *hypocrisy*) and should have been spanked as hard as the Nazi’s were (strike that, we preferred to hire most of them rather than see justice done). infact such an agency has no business even existing in peacetime, it’s like a standing army only *invisible*.. can you say secret police? to simply say (not in so many words of course) that “it’s ok when it’s us doing it to keep ourselves safe” is getting a lil old. and it’s down to that now. still, better that than the ignorance of the past, no matter how strategically expedient that ignorance was.

  you know, my mom misses the 50’s because things were “better” then, yet “doesn’t remember” any racism then. nevermind Jim Crow, that wasn’t “polite conversation”. she didn’t even *encounter* a black person in real life til high school. what she *really* missed before “the 60’s” and “the internet” “ruined everything by bringing all the bad stuff to the surface, we were so much happier when we didn’t know these things”, was the *ignorance*.. the cultivated ignorance of the American Prole.. if i wasn’t such a civil libertarian i might even say the police state they helped create with their complacency couldn’t have happened to a more deserving bunch, except *their* genration gets to *die* before their well-nursed Hydra finally lays its egg, and we’re the ones hafta live with the new Dodo’s formative years.

  gotta take a 180 with ya on this one, old friend. i’ll take sweet truth in all things. if we torture we need to say so and if we say we don’t we need not to. anything else and we got no right to call ourselves America.

  me, i think there’s some things you just don’t do – even for your own survival or even that of the entire planet for that matter – and throwing “suspects” in grimy holes where they can’t even defend themselves on nothing more than a hunch or a “tip” is one of ‘em, as is any other initiation of force against someone who’s not been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt (no doubt is “reasonable” with stakes this high) to have first initiated it against you.

  this isn’t about torture for me, baby. i’m hardcore and you know it. i’d torture an enemy and sleep like a baby at night if i was sure i had my facts straight. but we’re talking about “alleged” perps, not convicted ones, and regarding the wiretaps and data mining, that’s an assault on ME – an assault just as sure as a blow is but more offensive – whether i know it or NOT and i like it even LESS that i DON’T know when they’re doing it. i’d consider it more honourable for them to just cut my brain open but look me in the eye as they do so, at least then i’d be facing my accuser. just walk up to me and bash my brains in. i’d consider that more respectful of my dignity than being put under a secret microscope just for my views. i could shake hands and patch things up with Sluggo afterward since he was an honourable adverary who just happened not to like me, but a government? and having the audacity to do it in the name of “preserving my freedom” no less? at least Sluggo goes by his proper name and doesn’t call himself “friend” or “protector”.

  sorry, it sucked when they did it to Kennedy, it sucked when they did it to King, it sucked when they killed Gary Webb for exposing that the CIA dealt drugs and ruining Ronnie’s illegal (i mean “clandestine”) war(s) in Latin America and it sucks now that it’s happening to us. this stuff ALWAYS comes around.. we’ve always looked the other way as it was done to others over the years and now it’s our turn. it’s finally down to We the People. well we’re not classified that way by our government anymore, we’re all suspects now, and maybe we had it coming, dunno..

  i think it’s good this is all coming out. i think if you’re gonna eat meat you need to tour a slaughterhouse, and if torture is being committed in your name, you need to know, and if all communications are subject to tap then as a citizen in a free country you need to consent to that cuz without consent there’s no freedom – and the old chestnut that we “consent” to anything our officials do just by voting is bollox. “unconstitutional” means “we don’t consent” and “secret” means “we CAN’T consent”, which, as you pointed out, renders the Big C pretty much moot in the real world.

  add up all that and the occasional “terror strike” starts to seem like by far the lesser evil to me, but if we as a people decide we feel that there’s a time and a place for making a complete mockery of everything we claim to stand for, then fine, let’s formally withdraw from Geneva and repeal FISA altogether – like you say they’ve always done it anyway so this’ll just be cleaning up the cognitive dissonance between the pols’ voices and the “truthy” ones in our heads – and if none of us trusts none of us enough to be entrusted with private communications but think we can trust a GOVERNMENT to A) have access to all our info while we B) have access to little of theirs, then we’re very poor students of human nature.

  i guess i’m trying to say: do what we believe in, but whatever that is, OWN it.

  criminals need to be prosecuted. period, and if the “facts that come out” to accomplish that end up taking down a nation, so be it. a nation that stands on injustice is no nation anyway so if that’s the kind of nation we have then there’s already nothing left to lose except our miserable lives – that prospect didn’t seem to bother the Founders and i’d proudly lay down my life – or be tortured for that matter – to save this country’s principles, even if freedom and safety can no longer coexist. if that’s the case i choose to die an American than “live” (sic) as whatever you call citizens that tolerate things like the Patriot act, either in print *or* in practice. because if the only time you break out the Constitution is when someone’s a bad liar, then ya might as well put it to some functional use and roll a smoke with it.

  simpler still: if you’ve nothing for which you’re willing to die, you’ve no reason to live. therefore if we’re going to submit to what is basically “clandestine rule”, we’ve already given up self-determination, which to me renders life worthless and “survival” a moot point.

  so yes, you say these things might keep us safer. let me up the ante and say let’s say they *definitely* do.

  my answer would be, “what does a government that ignores the will of its people and operates in secret not just legally but now economically as well (taxation without representation despite the pretense of the “vote”) have to do with the price of Tea in a free country?

  so you prosecute ‘em for bein stupid, i’ll prosecute ‘em for violating the rights of an entire nation (ours) and we’ll divide their carcasses evenly among our animals the moment they’re fetched from the gallows – how’s that for representing all viewpoints?

• The GTL™
  4:28 am on April 26th, 2009 11

  Wow, my friend (Susan) — I just typed this response with one hand

  Blog ON, my friend

• susan28
  9:33 am on April 26th, 2009 12

  hehe, you’re getting quite adept at that

  i have to say one thing here before i forget: you’re the ONLY one who has put forth this argument with such refreshing candor. THIS is the level policy needs to be discussed on, not one line for the “what we’re fighting for” crowd and another for the “how we’re livin’” crowd. this one is squarely how we’re livin, and always best to go down roads like this with eyes wide open.

  i did see an article somewhere else by a guy striving for honesty who said he thought it should remain illegal, people who do it *should* be prosecuted, but those who do it in some official capacity should be able to use that as a defense and let the specific circumstances speak for themselves, just as we let our current criminal courts do that, sometimes finding someone “technically” guilty but fining them a dollar, just to uphold the law while giving a nod to the special circumstance. it seemed a way to address the issue without becoming hidebound by dogma on either side – that’s the beauty of the judiciary – but the situation we have now with all the secrecy and autocracy, and accountability itself viewed “bad for national security” just boils down to “trust us”. but government is nothing if not a business, and it was a wise tycoon who stated “a good business relationship is based on mutual distrust”, and i think that applies doubly to governments.

  your article here intersects with one i’m reading now by Adam Kokesh of IVAW (iraqui veterans agfainst war), who has an uneasy feeling the reason for Obama’s latest flipflop is that he intends to carry on the policies himself and doesn’t want to set a precedent which would jeopardise his own “legitimacy” when his accounting comes.

  i’d like to give Obama the benefit of the doubt and say he wasn’t being duplicitous on the campaign trail when he vowed to block basket warrants and immunity and ended up cuckolding us on it. i’d like to believe that when he finally got some actual intelligence briefing actually came around and believed this stuff was necessary. even if i disagreed, i’d at least like to think his integrity was intact. and because i wasn’t privvy to this info, i can’t second-guess him on it, but i DO know what’s at stake for the Republic based on the mission creep these policies inevitably take on (they’ve already been deemed kosher in the “war on drugs”, that didn’t take long did it), pretty soon there will be a short list of crimes that *do* still carry due process, but it will eventually all migrate to the “terror” list, and “terrorist” will be the new word for “criminal”, with courts becoming little more than archiving centers for the state’s enemies-du-jour.

  boy we are really putting shakespeare thru his paces now.. “Lear above the law, the Fool outside it”?

  that appears to be the question..

• susan28
  9:51 am on April 26th, 2009 13

  hey GTL: this is Adam Kokesh’s site: http://kokesh.blogspot.com/ i think you’d really dig it, frontpage story about a vet gaining an honourary discharge and full benefits after refusing to re-deploy on ethical grounds. it can be done and is happening more and more. might not agree on everything but you’ll definitely meet a new colleague. he’s a Marine and there’s rumblings about running him for Congress in 2010.

• susan28
  2:50 pm on April 26th, 2009 14

  i have to respond to this one thng:

  “I believe such practices DO keep us safer and because since such perpetrations are FELONIOUS, the feds can do nothing with any of this unless they make it “public” and I have a right to represent myself with a legal team comprised of professionals.”

  NO, honey, these laws (and their analagous previously-lied-about “practices”) are designed to PREVENT you from having a legal team. heck if you get an NSL you can’t even TALK to a lawyer.

  what, you think they’re gonna say, “darn, we can’t hurt GTL because the trial will out our illegal practices and expose us as the fleshly analogues to the unconstitutional wads of crap that were written to cover our tracks in the first place, so we’ll just have to let him go!”.

  of course not. they’re gonna say, “a fair trial for GTL will expose our crimes (including against GTL) so GTL will just have to “take one for the team” rather than give him the justice that is rightfully his, but out ourselves in the process. him or us? we choose us! let him rot in prison and be glad he only has one set of rights to be violated for his country!

  as a soldier, it’s your duty to take hits for the team, to your liberty, your health, suffering injustice rather than compromise a mission is your job, but it is NOT the job of free citizens – our country isn’t a “team” it’s (supposd to be) a loose-knit confederacy of freely-interacting individuals, and the president’t not our national “team captain” he’s the referee of the game of life in this country. he calls foul, he assigns penalties, but he does NOT have any input into the running of any of our personal lives and has no right to pry without probable cause and due process. i’m not giving up my 4A rights just to make some loyalist stud’s job easier, and i’m certainly not prepared to sacrifice a precious, sacred, eternal principle like a right to preserve a temporal thing like a building, or a country, or the temporal vessel (my body) in which my fire of liberty burns – you put that out then you might as well toss me on the ash-heap. rather smolder in freedom than thrive in Bush’s America pt II, Blue Dog Blues..

  “make it public”? they can’t do anything felonious to you unless they make it public? GTL? who’s GTL? haven’t seen him in months and he appears to have been expunged from the directory. last seen being dragged into a black Explorer by some armour-clad no-necks mumbling something about democracy being like a kitchen and if you wanted to make an omelette you had to crack a few skulls (or something like that; he wasn’t very articulate but had Emeril on in the Explorer on the way to the safehouse).

  moral: the stuff you *don’t* know about is the stuff that can hurt you the MOST.. so next time you go lamenting our newfound knowledge about just exactly how contemptuous our government is toward the rule of law and are frustrated that they’ll have to be even craftier about skirting it from now on, just remember Holgar, the blowtorch specialist with a culinary fetish in whose clandestine catering van you could oneday be spirited off to Hell’s Kitchen to discuss the negative impact of McCain jokes on the Global War on Terra, and see what kinda intel you and Holgar (did i mention he was also McCain’s valet?) can “cook up” together..

  pps: did you know the Patriot act and other enabling legislation has also been approved for use on “other” kinds of “terrorists”, like “narco” terrists? just disappear you and say you were grabbed under the Patriot Act and any further comment would jeoparise national security. Holgar had the kilo waiting in his van to plant on you, he’s very angry with you for making him do this, as now his after-dinner treat is “evidence” for your secret trial. any lawyer could make swisscheese outta their case, unfortunately you don’t get one cuz yer a “terra” suspect, which to them is the same as “terrist”.

  as you hang there in bastinado, blindfolded and begging for death, you wonder what you did to get here, you’d always consoled yourself that if you weren’t a terrorist this stuff wouldn’t really affect you unless some liberal rag spilled the beans, but now you’re thinking maybe you gave them too much credit.. and just as you’re about to attempt to bite your own tongue off in the hopes of bleeding to death, you use youtr last vocalisation to scream, “WHHHHYYYYYY!!!! I’M A PATRIOTIC AMERICAN DANGIT!!”.

  then, lowly at first, a whisper in your ear, a hisssss, so spiteful, spitting the vitriol into your one remaining ear: “myyy.. name’s.. nottttt.. JUAN!!!!”

  heheheee you’re skatin’ with him, man, i’m tellin’ ya!

  beware frail egos and megalomaniacs with access to the levers of non-reviewable clandestine power!

• The GTL™
  6:29 pm on April 26th, 2009 15

  What can I add, my friend? Oh, yeah — I was already aware of Adam and if they’re planning on going after THIS Airman, they’ve only got till June 1st when my committment is 100% complete Of course, NOTHING would surprise me at this point but I do promise you if they do call me up it’s gonna make the friggin’ news, GUARANTEED

• Fandb
  1:20 pm on April 27th, 2009 16

  Congratulations GTL, I see your readership has been extended to include other planets!

• susan28
  7:02 pm on April 27th, 2009 17

  ok, i’ll admit that last post was a little “out there” but there was a message in the madness, primarily the madness *itself*, though i did get on kind of a “Wrath of Khan” tangent toward the end there

  final scene: now realising that the mystery man who had ordered his rendition was none other than the infamous Senor El Juan McCain de Panama, GTL lets out a blood-curdling “McCAIIIIIIIIIN!!!!” before El Juan slams in the bite-plate and radios One of Many (the Borg drone formerly known as John Negroponte) to beam him back to Washington.

  fortunately i had by then convinced GTL that baiting El Juan was dangerous business and convinced him to swallow a transmitter which allowed him to be found by a passing garbage shuttle and safely returned to the blogosphere to continue the struggle against the Evil Empire.

  (poor form to mix movie metaphors i know, but DAMNIT, Fandb, imma blogger not a screenwriter!).

• The GTL™
  8:13 pm on April 27th, 2009 18

  LMFAO @ BOTH Of you, my friends!!! I absolutely frigging LOVED it!!!

• susan28
  9:02 pm on April 27th, 2009 19

  well like Jefferson said, the acts of tyrants must be met, from time to time, with the guffaws of incredulous patriots!

  (or something like that

• BigMIke
  2:33 am on May 23rd, 2009 20

  BigMIke…

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