Some GOP Governors After Association Summit: “Whahhhhhhhh… Sniff, Sniff! I Wanna Be Billed As “New Leader Of The Grand Old Party!… Sniff, Sniff… [HONK!]… Sniff, Sniff… [HONK!]“
The “Barracuda”; my former classmate from the metropolis known as Wasilla, Alaska, has apparently torqued off a bunch of her fellow neoconservative gub’nors when they found themselves at the closing Press conference and all they heard in their neocon brains was “Sarah!, Sarah!, Sarah!, Sarah” being chanted over and over again by our beloved, Right-Wing, mainstream media representatives of the “Free Press”.
As we all know, there isn’t a gub’nor or senator in the land who doesn’t stand before the mirror every morning as they straighten their red (or blue) “power ties” muttering to themselves, “Hello, Mr. (or Ms.) President.” over and over as they try to make “presidential” faces to themselves just before heading off to work commit their high crimes and misdemeanors against America…
According to CNN’s Political Ticker, their official wrap-up Press conference at the GOP Gubo-Nator’s Associated was filled with muffled sobs and sniffles as the reporters focused almost SOLELY upon the only governor in the land who is able to say she “can see Russia and Canada from her dining room window“, whether it is a huge stretch of the truth or not. After all, Little Diomede Island, just two miles away from Russia’s Big Diomede Island is a couple of thousand miles away from Wasilla and Juneau alike. But hey — that’s just semantics, right?
Anyhoo — here’s CNN’s recap of the latest GOP “whine-fest”; only a snip“, of course:
GOP governors unhappy with Palin press conference
From CNN Correspondent Dana Bash
MIAMI (CNN) — Some Republican governors tell CNN they were not particularly happy with the way the Republican Governors Association press conference was executed Thursday, saying that they agreed to go as a show of GOP governors’ unity — but they ended up feeling like silent Palin supporters, since it was clearly a press conference called for her.
The GOP governors spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity.
One called it awkward: “I’m sure you could see it on some of our faces.” …
Yessir, Gub’nor — we COULD see it on some of your faces. Lookie here:
Poor, poor neocon gub’nors — what are they to do? Some of them, such as none other than former GOP House Speaker Newt Gingrich who is rumored to be the next RNC Chairman, are trying their best to emulate him and portray themselves as “elite” spokemen and women of the GOP as they aspire for the next GOP presidential nomination. I can feel their pain. How else can the GOP resurrect themselves when the newly-adopted “heroine” of the Republican Party speaks most loudly to the least “elite” of the GOP base — those who’ve been pressuring (and succesfully SO) the Grand Old Party’s (so-called) “leadership” to continue pandering to they, the wacky-far-religious right — that same “religious right” who has again and again led the GOP to a bunch of consecutive “L’s” at the polls?
Tough fight; the GOP’s; to try and find a way to reach out to and KEEP the latter voting base while attempting to be “articulate” and “well-spoken” enough to reach into the brains of the “elites” who represent the moderate left and right of our country. Looks like they’ve got their work cut out for ‘em, does it not?
Cry… me… a RIVER.
***
See ALSO:
“Enjoy your exile in the Wilderness-butt-munchers!
No one could deserve it more than you do.”
“… I could go on. The point is, she is not a RINO. Moderates had their chance. It is time for conservatives to lead again.
Like it or not, she is a national political figure.”
“… She’s in the minority among conservatives, incidentally, in thinking The One can be a good president — but just barely. Just like our readership is in the minority in wanting her to become a national political figure. …”
“… With Sarah Palin all you get is ad nauseam blathering. It’s insecurity on parade. …”
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8:05 am on November 14th, 2008 1
Well after riding with Sassy Sarah in her Wacky Wasilla boat into oblivion now they want a bit of the limelight themselves.
I believe the Gubanators would look good in limelight since green is the color of envy.
Palin is the worst of the Republican Party, all myth and no reality. But the Republican social conservatives love to dwell on myth and look to politicians who fulfill their mythological wet dreams.
11:05 am on November 14th, 2008 2
I saw a few clips of her speaking with some other governors on Olberman and on Maddow, and it’s true; some of the other governors could not hide how bitter they were feeling. One guy I didn’t recognize, standing a few spots to her left was just seething in anger. The whole thing was a clear representation of the complete disarray and utter failure that is the GOP right now. It made me feel good all over!
3:07 pm on November 14th, 2008 3
LMFAO!!! You guys crack me up. I love the little phrases like “complete disarray” and “utter failure” and “all myth and no reality.” I guess y’all deserve to “feel good all over” after getting trounced by George Bush in the last two elections. Do you feel a thrill running up your leg too???
LOL LOL LOL
3:54 pm on November 14th, 2008 4
Bush was illegally appointed President by the Supreme Court which overstepped it’s Constitutional authority in his first go around, and he flat out stole the election the second time with systematic voter disenfranchisement. Hardly a trouncing. America learned though. Although the system is far from functional, it might be the first time in the history of the human race that having thousands and thousands of lawyers on hand worked out well for the anyone but the lawyers.
11:43 pm on November 14th, 2008 5
The Repub Governor’s Conference was a perfect example of eating your own.
No, F&B, I don’t feel a thrill running up my leg. I didn’t feel a tingle in my vagina either when Palin was picked for VP. In fact I rarely have a physical reaction to any politican except the gag factor. Except for Joe Biden of course. Now that Man has sex appeal.
12:05 am on November 15th, 2008 6
“Gaia’s Child:…not that’s HOT!
Got my attention
1:21 am on November 15th, 2008 7
“Now that’s Hot”!
You got me typing all bad…jeez lol.
1:43 am on November 15th, 2008 8
LMAO Gaia, that was a good one!
girardia: “Bush was illegally appointed President by the Supreme Court” blah blah blah; come on girardia, President Bush won both elections fair and square, even the ultra-far-left-liberal NY Times admitted it.
The conservatives aren’t questioning D’Oh-bama’s victory even though he received 700 million votes in Ohio alone thanks to ACORN. The left-wing-nut-jobs should give up their LAME argument that President Bush didn’t really win. After 8 years that thing is getting pretty stale, don’t ya’ think???
(Palin-Bush 2012) !!!
2:37 am on November 15th, 2008 9
the only thing missing with palin is her big outting when she strips on stage like she is dying to do anyway and struts around in her “Drill Baby Drill” panties and her “Ayers Form Bra”…. what you saw at the conference was not people mad or anything like that….. anyone within ten feet of her was suffering from lack of air she was hogging it all with her incessant yammering on her “bridge 2 no underwear. thank you Mo
3:40 pm on November 15th, 2008 10
Fandb, you said:
“If you really believe that bin Laden is stronger now than before 9-11, then you really haven’t been paying attention. Unless you think that hiding out in caves, with little to no resources, and virtually no impact on the outside world is a strong position to be in.”
Are YOU paying attention? Wow, it’s time to turn your T.V. off!
That seems to be the same rhetoric Bush liked to use. However, there are those of us, like I, who study the muslim world and history voraciously, and you really can’t put 9/11 in context without understanding the history there- Islamic extremists don’t hate America’s freedoms. They feel betrayed by a promise that America gave them not so long ago that they would have thier own Islamic state in Afghanistan if they purged the Soviets. In fact it was the Americans who trained and armed them, paid them $300/month salaries, and when the cold war ended, the US failed to back thier promise. But they do not fail to support the Zion state at the expense of the muslims in that region. So, in fact, the the US played with a double edge sword, and cut itself. They recruited, trained, equipped, paid and unleashed Islamic extremism for thier own political interests, and then turned their backs on them.
As for BinLaden living in some cave? Do you really believe that? He is not that weak, nor are the other Islamists. Infact thier message has become increasingly appealing to the other who were more moderate in the name of expelling a force that claims it is bringing freedom and democracy on the back of a tank. However, although the muslim culture is far from being a monoculture full of extremists (they really are still the minority), the appeal and call to resist the US imperial force in Afghanistan and Iraq is strong. When innocent civilian people die, and their families seek self-defence, and retribution by force and fight back to expell the US forces, they are labled terrorists. It’s another self-fulfilled prophecy. I suppose you believe Iraq had anything to do with 9/11? Or that the war has been successful and the surge has ‘worked’? It might be useful to educate yourself on the many occaisions the US has done a very similar thing in the muslim world and then sent innocent American men and women to kill other innocents and die in the honor of ‘protecting thier great nation’. They back a dictator who uses their american backed power to re-order the internal social power structure, and just before it implodes the US steps back to pretend their hands are clean, and then they step in again as the great humanitarian power that is going to bring freedom and democracy, but I would encourage any of you who only see the last part of the equation to look carefully into the past, and think about what this all might mean for the future, as well as what might be the motives and what might be at stake for the the American gov’t in what it does. I’ll leave that analysis to you. I believe you are smart enough. Just remember that western thinker Johaness Jansen who advocates that Islam is trying to tople the west says that in fact (if this were true) that the west doesn’t stand a chance. Look at histrically as well, any imperial power that has tried to rule by military has always been over extended and ultimately destroyed.
I myself, am going to continue writting a doctoral thesis on the subject and will present the patterns in the history of this kind of political behavior. It’s even formalized in the Westphalian state system which says that the people can be ’spent’ for the states political pursuits…there is not any humanitarian consideration in the states actions when interacting in the international community, and least of all by an imperial power.
And those who think that the US state and gov’t hasn’t done anything illegal in the context of international laws should really really turn off thier T.V.s and look into what those laws are.
4:15 pm on November 15th, 2008 11
Well said.
11:45 pm on November 16th, 2008 12
One thing about it. There will be no one to beat around by the Democrats/libs other then potential candidates for office. Sarah Palin will continue to be smeared and slandered for her stances no matter what they are. The election is 2 weeks past and still the internet is full of Sarah Palin bashing.
Not McCain bashing. Palin bashing. Why is that? Oh yeah in 2012 McCain will be in an old folks home. Palin will be 4 years wiser and 4 years more seasoned on the national stage. A sincere threat to the kingdom the Antitypes are building for themselves.
11:45 am on November 17th, 2008 13
stellar: Good luck on your thesis.
When was the last time there were free elections in Iraq? Do you believe the Afghanis preferred life under the Taliban regime? Under the regime of Saddam Hussein? So what has Osama bin Laden done lately? Why is it that the political infighting within Al Qaeda and the distrust Osama has for many of his top advisers never make it into the news? Who will take over Al Qaeda when bin Laden dies, or will Al Qaeda die with him?
Having just left the ivory tower myself it may sound unusual, but I’ll put my money on a “doer” over a “thinker” every time.
I’ve heard all that rhetoric before. The U.S. really isn’t that bad, certainly not as bad as your professors would lead you to believe. So, after you get out in the “real” world for a while, away from the one-sided information presented in the ivory tower of academia, and start getting a real education in the ways of the world, then I believe your criticisms of the U.S. will change.
While you’re sitting around pontificating about the United States’ crimes against humanity on the world stage, and prognosticating the demise of the U.S., do any of your professors talk about the Billions of dollars in aid that the U.S. spreads around the globe every year? Do they talk about the hundreds of thousands of American lives that have been lost so others could live in freedom? Do they talk about how the United States’ improvements in medicine and technology are raising the standard of living for people in every nation in the world? Do they talk about how, in the United States, they are free to sit there and bash this country and the soldiers who died defending it precisely because those soldiers were willing to die defending their right to do so. In spite of liberal opinion, we have freedoms as well as obligations that no other country on earth has or would have without our efforts and sacrifices.
I have heard all that liberal academia ivory tower rhetoric before, many times, and had many arguments with professors who spouted such inane nonsense endlessly. So you can wisecrack about turning the TV off, but you appear to be getting all your information from one side of the issue anyway. History will likely demonstrate that it is from the wrong side.
But I will agree that my statement was somehwat inaccurate. I should have indicated that bin Laden is much weaker now than he was immediately after 9-11. Before 9-11, few people in the world had ever heard of him.
10:28 pm on November 17th, 2008 14
So in other words, a bunch of men in suits are jealous that Palin got more attention than they did at a press conference? Go cry to someone who cares and quit being a bunch of little bitches about it! The liberal MSM illuminati are probably making a bigger deal about it then it really was anyway.
10:49 pm on November 17th, 2008 15
Oh Fandb, you assume wayyy too much. I am not a youngster student in some ivory tower who has not lived a ‘real’ life, or so you put it. I have been working and travelling much longer than I’ve been in…what did you call it? ‘academia’ (is that some kind of nut?) Wanna guess how old I am?
My closest friends are from places who in fact know better what America does than most Americans.
You think my ‘teachers’ tell me what to believe? If that were the case, I would take my money else where and get a real education. My university here in Canada doesn’t operate like that. In fact, most of the other students in my classes who admitedly don’t do their homework do think just as you do.
I will respond to your questions about BidLaden some other time, you can take all the wild guesses for why that is, but I will respond right now to you claim that somehow foreign aid is for the benefit of the beneficiaries. I have just researched 1992 famine in somalia, which you might like to know actually was a result of foreign aid, not drought and factional fighting. The foreign aid that was flowing into the county for more than a decade before the famine doesn’t have you asking, ‘how could a famine occur when tonnes of food are being shipped there for decades?’ well, it should. Food aid erodes local economies, and a simple course on basic economics would explain how this can happen. Free to very cheap food puts local farmers out of business, erode indigenous methods of coping with famine (how’d you think they got that far throughout history without America’s help?). So, why would America send all this food to another country, even when they don’t need it? Well, the story starts with a leader who was a dictator, and who killed his opponents, backed by who? Yes! The good USA. Why didn’t they care about the people when the food flowed in and the dictator was making millions off of it at the expense of his people? Why would America support a predatory gov’t? First, look into Public Law- 480…it will tell you all you need to know, but supplement that with congressional hearings. It is a tangled web my friend, but I am commited to uncovering the truths. NGOs who are paid to deliver the food give major political donations to both parties, it creates food dependancy, satisfies major grain producers who get paid by the gov’t for thier surplus, and the through transportation and delivery contracts, the money for foreign aid ends up back at home, mostly. Here’s a snippet:
The discourse surrounding the 1992 famine in Somalia as viewed by donors, governments, and media neglect to account for even the most recent history affecting Somalia. There is no attempt to understand how decades of food aid relates to the erosion of traditional agricultural production. For ten years before the famine, Somalia was, “the largest recipient of aid in sub-Saharan Africa.” (Maren, 1997:24) There is absolutely no attempt to discuss how the food aid economy served to, “stratify and hierarchize Somalia’s population on the basis of racialized status, “purity” of heritage, occupation, region and language.” (Besteman, 1998:109) Food aid re-ordered the nations political and economic relationships by eroding the established relationships fundamental to securing people’s entitlement to food. Peter Little makes clear in his book that, “The notion of trust is inherent to the institution of dilaal (market agent that insures the validity of market transactions and guards against the sale of stolen animals and products) and relevant to the understanding ‘unofficial’ economies like Somalia’s.” “…trust relationship(s) can be better indicators of business practice than formal rules and legal stipulations…This reality is an important reason why transnational agribusiness firms in Africa often sub-contract…” (Little, 2003:11) “…commerce is at the heart of Somali livelihoods and social relationships. It has the potential to unite as well as divide, and provides a convenient lens into the causes of conflict…” (Little, 2003:2)
A discussion about the fact that there is so much food in some nations while food security seems an impossible goal in others is altogether absent in the dominant discourse on food security in Somalia. Ray Bush emphasizes the importance of understanding the world food regime in explaining Africa’s food insecurity stating that, “…it helps explain the seeming anomaly of a world system where there are simultaneously food surpluses and deficits and widespread hunger…While the abundance of food, notably grain in Europe and the United States, can be seen to be separate from the agrarian questions in the Global South…”, but that they, “…are also very much connected” (Bush, 2007:160)
Ray Bush asks what the role of multi-national corporations is in the food system as a vehicle for promotion of agricultural trade in moving the ‘Grain Mountains’ of the Global North into the international market. (Bush, 2007:160) It is in the interests of governments and aid agencies to underestimate the agricultural production to encourage donor support. Agribusiness depends on access to foreign markets which is made clear in the language used by Bob Stallman, the President of the American Farm Bureau Federation to the Senate Agriculture, Nutrition and Forestry Committee during the federal congressional testimony given in 2001. There is constant reference to the fact that, “U. S. agriculture is highly dependent on access to world markets with over one-third of our bulk crop production and almost one-quarter of our total production destined for foreign shores.” It must be mentioned that the American government gives massive subsidies to the agricultural industry. Representative Jack Fields of Texas notes, “The U.S. government spends 8 out of every 10 of its export financing dollars to promote the export of agricultural commodities…The U.S. Government spent about $12.2 billion in domestic and export subsidies for agricultural products in 1992…” (Maren, 1997:190)
All food aid is distributed under the authority of Public Law 480, also known as Food for Peace Program. Michael Maren who worked with NGOs on the ground in Somalia monitoring food distribution for more than a decade before the famine and during the famine explains, “The food we see on television being fed to starving children is Title II, which is emergency food…also used regularly for food-for-work projects…Most of these are administered by NGOs. …Title III, which is food for development…sold in the developing countries and the money used for development projects…largest part of PL-480 is Title I, foods which are simply sold to merchants at bargain basement prices.” (Maren, 1997:168) Said Barre displaced his political enemies in the fertile regions, and settled his people in refugee camps there. He gave contracts to clan members allowing them to sell food-aid in the market. He did this in accordance with PL-480 as funded by USAID and administered by NGOs, allowing the Government of Somali Democratic Republic to raise money through the sales of Title I food-aid. As Michael Maren points out, “Permission to benefit from the foreign aid is bestowed as a favor upon close kin and loyal political allies. In Somalia, Siyaad’s authorization to buy Title I food was a license to print money.” (Maren, 1997:168)
The sales of cheap food in the Somali market brought the prices of grain so low it put local farmers out of business who then migrated to camps where food aid is administered. According to a local man Michael Maren interviews in his book, it was observed that “…auctioning US food…undermined farmer’s attempts to get a fair price for their agricultural produce. So farmers [were] reduced to beggars.” (Maren, 1997:168) Ray Bush talks about how vulnerable food production is to the market. (Bush, 2007:147) Daniel Stone explains, “Cargill, a violator of the rights and independence of family farmers throughout the world, is notorious for using massive subsidies from the U.S. government to dump vast amounts of grains in poorer countries.” This action “undermines small farmers, helps to destroy the local food production systems, and forces dependence of small farmers and local rural economies on corporate agribusiness.” (Stone, 2006:1) This all seems to be a pretty simple conclusion to make understanding how the very basic mechanisms of price, supply and demand function in the market. Why is it grossly overlooked by agencies like FAO and the UN, let alone the US government, regarding the effect dumping grains in poorer countries might have on the economy?
Food aid has been poorly regulated over the years. The United States General Accounting Office undertook a review of the effectiveness of Food Aid in producing food security in recipient nations a whole forty years after PL-480 had been adopted. They found that USAID did not have an established criteria and guidance for implementing food aid programs. They note USAID’s inability to demonstrate the impact of food aid on food security and their failure to ensure accountability for food aid resources. (GAO, 1995:1) Furthermore, they suggest USAID conduct their own assessments on the effectiveness of their aid programmes in securing food security and report back to the GAO with their findings. According to my findings, to date this self reporting has not been done.
It is noted by Abdirahman Osman Raghe that, “…food aid was coming in like hell and there was no monitoring by the donors. In front of the donors, aid was being divided among officials and the sons and daughters of bosses, and nothing was being done. They were pouring the aid in without any conditions; aid must have conditions. The donors didn’t care if it was all going to the politicians, and they accepted none of the blame.” (Maren, 1997:165) Throughout Michael Maren’s book, he highlights the measure of success used by NGOs responsible for food distribution. NGOs like Care and Save the Children report to USAID the numbers of people they feed as their main measure of success, but there is no assessment on whether the people really need food aid. Even during the famine it is noted that, “Though the 1992 famine in Somalia did not affect the northeast region, food and aid were still offered.” (Maren, 1997:103) Michael also problematizes the methods used for generating the numbers provided. He dedicates several chapters to the controversy of number generating. He points out when it serves the interests of the NGOs, they seem unable to generate numbers; claiming it is impossible to count the refugees and determine whether the situation is under control so that the aid agencies can phase out their programs. Sometimes aid agencies are found stating candidly in their policy reports, “that the process of arriving at figures is so fraught with methodological problems that it is rarely attempted.” (Maren, 1997:214) Other times, when it comes to reporting to the media regarding how many people are in need of food aid assistance, or how many people they have successfully fed, they become quite certain of the numbers they generate. (Maren, 1997)
World Bank issued a “discussion paper” stating that donor countries, “food aid budgets are primarily influenced by prospects of commercial exports of their food surpluses rather than being determined in accordance with the needs and objectives of recipient countries to reduce their food import dependency. Accordingly, donors usually reduce their food aid budgets when prospects for commercial exports of surpluses are good and increase than when those prospects are poor. As a result, significant price fluctuations are likely to occur in domestic food market, particularly when the former decision of donors happens to coincide with a poor harvest in the recipient country and the latter with a good one.” (Hossein, 1988:1)
World Bank prepared this “discussion paper” after decades of food aid had eroded the Somali people’s agricultural production. This paper was produced in 1988, which also coincides with the time when donors happened to be talking about finding a way out of Somalia, anticipating the fall of Barre’s government. (Maren, 1997) Was the paper produced so that donors could abdicate responsibility with the impending implosion of the Somali state? Was the paper not given the authority of a formal “study” because they wanted to be careful not to imply any direct responsibility for the events that were about to take place? In their paper, some of the ravaging effects of food aid were noted, stating that food aid, “often acts to dampen domestic food prices or, at least, prevent them from rising, thereby reducing incentives to domestic producers of food crops and exacerbating the national food deficit.” And that, “when provided for an extended period of time, can change the food habit of consumers (particularly that of urban groups) in the recipient country through replacing traditional food grains by imported substitutes. This has certainly been the case in Somalia where there has been a notable shift in consumption out of sorghum and maize to rice and wheat products.” (Hossein, 1988:1)
“Despite the predominance of the pastoral sector in the national economy, the previous regime and its policies and investments- often with World Bank or other funding-…have done anything to benefit pastoralism. Although Barre himself was from a pastoral background and the majority of the country practiced pastoralism, his regime did its best to undermine mobile pastoralism through resettlement schemes, irrigation investments, and subsidized water development for large-scale traders and elites.” (Little, 2003:168) Settling people in refugee camps was very profitable for the government.
Among the people profiting from buying subsidized food in Somalia was the minister of agriculture. “The very people whose job it was to promote agriculture and increase production were instead making money selling imported food they were, in essence, given for free…he was now working to keep production low and prices high.” (Maren, 1997:168) This process is termed ‘dispossession by accumulation’ by Ray Bush who points out the ways in which contemporary capitalism reproduces itself in Africa. (Bush, 2007:147)
Harriet Friedmann stresses the relevancy of historical relationships in the shaping of the character of present day property rights, commoditization of land and labour, and the ways in which food regimes have been established and transformed, “…by the most powerful trade actors…”,”…in the Settler-Colonial food regime power and wealth resided in the importing countries, which exported capital…to ‘improve’ (or as we now say ‘develop’) lands…” (Bush, 2007: 161) After the Second World War, the United States would appear as a new hegemon in the world of food regimes that would give power to supermarket chains. “…this is done with the rhetoric of flexible accumulation and flexible markets which bear little resemblance to the reality of inflexible poverty for African producers…the role of export agriculture and cash crops not consumed in Africa but in the United States and Europe are seen by donors as key to extricating much of Africa from its food crisis.” (Bush, 2007:162)
With imported grain replacing the Somali grown grain, and the nomads settled in camps, more land was free for other uses. Siad would sell and transfer the fertile lands to his friends and family, which had once been Italian and British colonial land used for growing cash crops. Today, they are Somali lands used for growing cash crops for export to Italy, Europe and the U.S. “Most of the country’s agricultural land…was ideally suited for growing bananas, melons, and other fruits that could be exported for hard currency and huge profit. A joint venture with Italy, Somalifruit, was the country’s single largest export firm and was largely controlled…by Siyaad’s family and friends.” (Maren, 1997:169)
“For instance, it is clear that Dole’s investment in the banana sub-sector was at least partially motivated by the so-called Lome Agreement that allowed favorable access by a former colony (Somalia) to the markets of its former European patron (Italy).” (Little, 2003:170) For the production of bananas the government would implement ‘flood-prevention procedures’. The government would prevent the waters that small scale farmers relied upon , “…to irrigate their land…If you wanted to help small farmers you shouldn’t be protecting the land against floods. We really needed to be helping people capture the water before it receded back to the river.”(Maren, 1997:170)
With Said driving people off their land and selling it to his family and friends, the displaced peoples would then go into refugee camps. In the camps, people would become dependant on the cycle of food aid and so would Somali’s elites. Food aid presented opportunity for profit and eroded the means of the individual’s entitlement to food. “In essence, the West’s surplus grains were subsidizing the production of bananas and other crops that did not compete with Western agricultural interests. And Somalia’s elite were making millions of dollars at both ends of the system. All this was made possible by food aid…” (Maren, 1997:170)
The implications of food aid in Somalia were both political and economic for the U.S. Initially, the U.S. was trying to keep the last of the pro-Western states of Kenya, and Somalia out of the hands of the Soviets. The Horn of Africa would have strategic importance to America, being “The intermediate-range target [of] Saudi Arabia, the world’s largest producer of petroleum…” (Maren, 1997:36) Somalia also presented the opportunity of a market for which American subsidized agricultural surplus could be dumped in order to create market dependency. It was for these reasons the U.S. would do whatever it took to please Said Barre and help him maintain his power despite his extremely poor human rights record. Michael Maren also suggests the money made by American and Russian arms manufacturers from the sales of weapons to the country should not be discounted. Mohamed Abshir Waldo discusses this, “We wanted the food to buy arms. The donors were giving food to our enemies and they were buying arms…what do you do about the liquidity that the food will bring in, the selling of the food, realizing money, and then buying arms? It’s like a mini arms race fueled with food.” (Maren, 1997:104) Michael Maren concludes, “The brief exaggerated importance of the Horn of Africa meant that arms poured in from the East and West, and along with these arms, to fight the battle for hearts and minds, came relief and development aid.” (Maren, 1997:33)
In a study authored by World Bank’s Farzin Y.Hossein, Farzin concludes the magnitude of food dependency created over the years, “even with the exclusion of the years of war and drought from the sample period, the value of food import shows a trend that has been growing at an annual rate of more than 21 percent. The extent of Somalia’s dependency on food import is better understood when it is noted that the share of food import in total volume of food consumption rose from less than 33 percent on average for 1970-79 period to over 63 percent during the 1980-84 period…” (Hossein, 1988:1)
Not only is food aid dependency profitable to agribusiness, governments, and the numerous NGOs responsible for the distribution of food aid, it is equally profitable for transport and storage companies. Just like the NGOs, transport companies bid for contracts. General Accounting Office stated that cargo preference laws which requires, “…75 percent of food aid be shipped on privately owned U.S.-flag vessels increased shipping bills to American taxpayers by an estimated total of $578 million per year from 1989 through 1993.” (Maren, 1997:189)
During the Penny-Grandy amendment debate in 1993, an amendment that would restrict American ships carrying food aid from charging the U.S. government rates in excess of twice the level of competitive world market rates, Representative Pat Roberts from the state of Kansas said that, “…when the USDA asked for bids from the U.S.-flag carriers, one of the early bids came in at $138 per ton, more than five times the going world rate of $20 to $30 per ton…But as later bids came in, the USDA was forced to accept rates upward of $90 per ton…”(Maren, 1997:190) Representative Charles G. Rose III of North Carolina provided a long list of members of the North American Export Grain Association who also owned or had interest in transport corporations. (Maren, 1997:191)
The Food for Peace Act states that it must make funding available for the movement and administration of food aid, and like Michael Maren puts it, NGOs and transport companies line up like pigs at a trough. (Maren, 1997:189) “P.L. 480 Title II Section 202(e), as amended in Subpart A. Food for Peace Act and Related Statutes (P.L. 110-246), requires FFP to make funding available to eligible organizations to assist in 1) establishing new programs under Title II; 2) meeting specific administrative, management, personnel and internal transportation and distribution costs for carrying out Title II programs (including monetization programs) in foreign countries; and 3) improving and implementing methodologies for food aid programs, including needs assessments (upon request of the Administrator), monitoring (especially at the household level), and evaluation” (USAID, 2008)
Agricultural Trade Development and Assistance Act (PL-480) of 1954 was signed into law by President Dwight D. Eisenhower. PL-480 states its purpose clearly as being, “To make maximum efficient use of surplus agricultural commodities in furtherance of the foreign policy of the United States, and to stimulate and facilitate the expansion of foreign trade in agricultural commodities produced in the United States by providing a means whereby surplus agricultural commodities in excess of the usual marketing of such commodities may be sold through private trade channels, and foreign currencies accepted in payment therefore.” (Maren, 1997:194)
Development aid workers would carry out a new kind of occupation in Somalia; an invasion of a country by people with, “money and a culture and a lifestyle that was contagious.”(Maren, 1997:39) The group with distributional power is the group with the power over life and death. “Food, next to life itself, has become our greatest common denominator. Its availability, quality, price, its reflection of the culture it feeds and its moral and religious significance make it quite literally history’s ’staff of life.’ Today, in the never-ending worldwide struggle to determine who will control its production, quality and accessibility, food is no longer viewed first and foremost as a sustainer of life. Rather, to those who seek to command our food supply it has become instead a major source of corporate cash flow, economic leverage, a form of currency, a tool of international politics, an instrument of power — a weapon!” (Krebs, 1992:1)
Instrumental in creating public consent of these questionable uses of food aid activities and military interventions is the media. Most people assumed the human suffering had become unbearable and viewed the US decision to send the military into Somalia based on purely humanitarian reasons. Abby Stoddard claims, “Somalia represents an unprecedented case of U.S. military intervention on purely humanitarian grounds, without attendant geo-strategic, political or economic interest.” (Stoddard, 2006:77) Others assumed it was the media pressure which had rallied public support for intervention. The huge debate continues about how much influence the media had on government policy decisions to intervene in Somalia and how much a role media-led public pressure played. However, USAID’s Andrew Natsios says that media representation of the famine followed policy and was not instrumental in Bush’s decision to intervene in Somalia. He says that lower government officials use media in their attempt to push, “…their agenda items further up the pay scale, to get it to the Secretary’s desk.” (Stoddard, 2006:82)“Generally speaking, the US organizations aim their media efforts more at the public for fund-raising purposes, raising awareness among domestic audiences with the goal of getting private individuals to open their hearts and wallets to the victims.” (Stoddard, 2006:83) Both Susan Moeller and Michael Maren detail the standard four-step formula for reporting a famine for this purpose. (Moeller, 1999, Maren, 1997)
still not convinced about how this works or that I’ve done my ‘homework’? let me know, I will provide the full study and sources you might like to look up, or,…you could talk so some of my personal friends who are from that region. Power is in knowledge.
11:26 pm on November 17th, 2008 16
foreign aid is a big business. I used to want to work for NGOs until I did the research. I wondered why there were more and more aid agencies popping up all the time, and yet the problems just never seem to get better, only worse. Well, that wouldn’t be good for business, would it? I assure you Fandb, I hold no special place in any ivory tower, nor do I aspire to. I am a thinker and a doer…for me, the one is useless without the other. And most of all, it is simple, I am commited to Justice. Nice to meet you.
11:36 pm on November 17th, 2008 17
p.s., how do I load a picture in the picture box?
12:26 am on November 18th, 2008 18
“stellarsoulartist”, hang around more often
1:13 am on November 18th, 2008 19
I’ll second that…..
1:23 am on November 18th, 2008 20
stellarsoulartist has that combination of longevity and longwindedness that some liberals mistake for intellect. fortunately for the millions of recipients around the world of americas goodwill, food is just a very small small part of it.
2:00 am on November 18th, 2008 21
I have been hanging around for a bit now, doing a little soul searching,reading posts and try to get a feeling about some of the issues that are important to the democrats. thinking about a party that has left some of us feeling out in the cold. some enough to cross to the left. it really comes down to which group of extremists one feels will least affect there lives negatively. so like i said, ive been reading some liberal blogs and what not, just trying to enlighten myself to just what would be attractive about the liberal left viewpoint. I mean heck, who wants to hangout with the extreme right.
well im afraid i have yet find any reason
to change my viewpoints. ive seen alot of bush bashing, followed up by some palin bashing, with a dash of lieberman bashing thrown in for good measure. i’ll take the praise the lord crowd anyday over the seashepards and the acorn groups and the united autoworkers. enviromental and social extremism, led by the democrats. have crippled this country for the last two decades. for liberals political correctness is superior to just correctness. nothing has changed from what i have observed, still the same pithy, needy, the world owes me respect crowd you have always been. socialism is strangling this country and though of late some of the republican party have boarded the socialism express, the problems we are dealing with now have been long in coming and are the results of deep rooted liberal policies. im still stunned how so many could vote so directly in contrast with their best interests
2:08 am on November 18th, 2008 22
no, actually food (and agri-tools, cuz I guess those dumb people haven’t figured out how best to cultivate their own land for their own needs),food is the biggest part of aid. I’m not even american and I know this. But you are right vegofish,- there is cash, too. Oh yeah, and the good people in Rwanda got mars bars and gatorade, and people in Asia after an earthquake got comfort form bras…guess you can’t eat those. I’m not making this stuff up- I’m not that funny.
This is all public information, if you are willing to dig for it.
I like the comment you left vegofish, it makes me laugh. However, I think it’s more appropriate in describing Palin. (I’m guessing you are a repub., given the liberal remark you made and I think I am catching on, the republican party is the one that doesn’t think education is of any real value, right? someone correct me if I am wrong)
3:25 am on November 18th, 2008 23
You’ve been right about everything so far there Stella. In this country we have a political party that is made up basically of most of our big time crooks and the embarrassingly large number of imbeciles that follow them, which we refer to as the GOP. Praise the Lord-He gave us this planet to use up and he’s coming any day now! The Republicans have held most of the power for the last several decades but somehow it’s the damlibrals that have screwed things up. The majority of foreign aid this country gives so generously is in the form of military weapons and consulting. When a kid gets killed by a landmine or a machine gun or by depleted uranium chances are that it’s a quality, American made product provided from the great generosity of the American people. I read the other day that we were 17th overall in donations compared to other countries but that if you factor out the miltary aid and aid with blatant strings attached that we don’t even make the list. Granted, as Stella pointed out, a lot of that aid either inadvertantly or intentionally has serious negative repurcussions anyway so maybe it’s OK that we really don’t give much of anything to anyone except weapons.
10:51 am on November 18th, 2008 24
canada gives people food, france gives people food,
the united states gives people, freedom, justice, and liberty. we give them hospitals and schools and and sanitary water and sewage. we give any foriegner who desires it an ivory tower education so then they too can go bash america, then we happily defend that persons right to do that, with our lives. A liberal that I have some respect for once told me he felt the biggest difference between liberal and conservative thinking was that liberals see nuance in the answers to complicated questions and conservatives see black and white. I dont think he could have been more wrong. maybe closer to the truth would be to say conservitives tend to be more pragmatic than idealistic with the left leaning towards idealism often in the face of reality.
i have noticed the strong ability, to ignore what someone says or writes and interperet it in what ever manner fits best in their skewed idealism.
11:33 am on November 18th, 2008 25
what ideals do you liberals espouse that are good for our country and the world, and are realistic in application? i have yet to find any in my search. i cannot think of any issue that the left has a “better” idea on. they are great second guessers though, and certainly use hindsight aggressively. the same old lithmis test still applies, if you believe in a higher power you are automatically labeled as anti intellectual. your failure to acknowledge that the world is a safer place because america has kept the
bad guys occupied where they live rather than where you live. our enemies in the middle east do not want peace
and when we do not bring the war to them, they will once again bring it to us. this is a reality, one that if you chose to you could educate yourself on just as readily as you did with all your “facts” about world aid. your failures to acknowledge the impossibility
of implimenting european style health care and education reforms while at the same time allowing unchecked illegal immigration. your failures in acknowledging that we need energy to live,and that we can safely produce that energy right here in the US without depending on places like venezuala for oil supplies. although im sure the hard core among you feel that chavez is on the right track. hypocritcal is the term i think fits best. i think you folks understand the issues facing us, you just refuse to acknowledge the realities of fixing them.
11:43 am on November 18th, 2008 26
giardia did you actually admit to watching olberman?
little wonder you are so overly underinformed
12:02 pm on November 18th, 2008 27
republicans have only been able to slow the pace of a slide to socialism. i/m feeling like for the most part you have probably won. america is peopled by lazy sheep,
they want a big government to take care of them. they want to live in a place where taking responsibility for ones actions is not neccesary they want bloated labor unions to protect them from their own laziness, they want uncle there to bail them out when there antipathy
drives companies to bankruptcy, they want uncle their to buy out the mortgage that they couldnt afford to begin with. not one other country on this planet offers people the chance to succeed that america does. not any,
nada, none, period. the downside is the chance of failure. another reality here, listen up now, you cannot have one with out the other. but you can live, at least for awhile, in a land with no success or failure. its been tried a few times, didnt work out so good. the sheeples of the world have short memories. but for now the sheeples have spoken
o-baaaaaa-ma o-baaaaaa-ma
12:37 pm on November 18th, 2008 28
Veg-This lazy liberal would love to hang around and dismantle your lunatic non-reality based ramblings and ridiculous accusations but because I have several small businesses, and I’m a full time student, as well as being partially disabled, I’m pretty busy. Besides, I’m hoping to get out and snap off a few rounds on a Mac-90 my buddy scored. Liberals with high powered rifles! Ha!
1:13 pm on November 18th, 2008 29
“girardia”…I hear ya man…after seeing the farrrr right come out in droves as of late, I definitely see how Bush the Dictator got in office as they continue defending him to this day.
Not a mystery at all.
2:07 pm on November 18th, 2008 30
well giardia, coming up with excuses to not defend your positions is a solid left wing standard. i dont blame you, you have nothing else. there are no-nonutopian,reality based arguments to be made in opposition to the issues i brought up. your hypocrisy is evident with your support of the very people who would happily take away your right to enjoy that weapon your friend “scored”. (?stole) and that is the mainstream of your chosen party, that is not even the extremist views. i detest the religious extremism that has become the percieved core of the republican party. but compared to the damage that the social and enviromental extremists on the left can do to our economy and personal freedoms. the religous right is harmless.believe in a god or not…who cares, no gay marriage… who cares? no abortions, lots of abortions, who cares. i mean really, what can those issues really do to negatively affect our way of life as a whole. on the other hand my freedom to say and do as i see fit, not as an innercity academic sees fit, is very important to me. you and your buddies freedom to go shoot that gun is important to me. energy and financial independence from countries that would see us fail is important to me.
utilzing what our planet has to offer in a safe and renewable way is important to me.
the party you side with stands next to you on none of these issues. someday when you grow up you will better understand how the world really works, and the disney vision of the world you have been indoctrinated into will gradually fade. I guess it is the right of youth to enjoy blissfull ignorance. I,m just not sure what excuse so many of your elders can use.
2:24 pm on November 18th, 2008 31
its really time to let the bush thing go guys. as far as i know he didnt recieve one vote in this election.
matter of fact it may come as a shock to some of you, but he wasnt even running for president. of course if you only hear what the left says then you may have had a mistaken immpression on that.
2:39 pm on November 18th, 2008 32
and why does this site seem to edit posts? lines come up periodically missing from staements. maybe it is my old HP. DONT GET ME WRONG GTL, I AM NOT ACCUSING YOU OF CENSORSHIP. i am just mmissing lines somehow
2:42 pm on November 18th, 2008 33
Veg-stick around. I’ll provide reality based rebuttals to your ridiculous diatribe when I get a chance and I don’t know where you got the impression I’m in my youth. I have gray hair turning white. I enjoy my dialogue with the other right wing nut jobs like F&B, and we find that we agree on more things than most stereotypical righties and lefties would ever want to admit.
Have a great day.
2:45 pm on November 18th, 2008 34
Veg-that just started happening the other day. At least on my computer, if I click on the messed up spot once or twice it pops up clearly. Good luck, although I noticed that Stella uses a lot of big words and complex sentence structures so most Republicans will have trouble reading his stuff.
3:25 pm on November 18th, 2008 35
Stellar – thanks for your response, but I’ll be honest, I don’t have time to read the whole thing right now. (There is a link near the top of the page at the end of GTL’s orginal post that will take you to the gravatar site so you can put your “image” in the little box.)
Gotta agree with Vegofish on the Olberman issue. Mark Twain once said that “If you don’t read the newspaper you’re uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you’re misinformed.” I think only the second part of his comment applies to Olberman.
Hey girardia, if you’re gonna grow up you’d better do it soon, I don’t think you have much time left
… (just kidding!)
—
I’m not arguing that there are not multiple reasons for providing Aid to foreign countries. And I’m sure there are many people, on both sides of the aisle, and on both sides of our common border for that matter, that abuse various relief efforts for their own benefit. To deny this would be a very myopic view of the world as well as the U.S. As would be the tendency many liberals have to blame such situations entirely on the U.S. This is where most of the arguments fail, the problems you cite are not just U.S. problems but problems of the entire industrialized west. Since the U.S. is the 800 pound gorilla, we are targeted when others who are equally culpable are not.
But at the end of the discussions, ask your friends in those countries who receive these immense quantities of U.S. Aid if they would prefer that we just stop providing it.
It’s sort of like when I have to listen to all the little liberals whining about how much they hate their jobs, when I suggest that they should just quit, the reality of the situation becomes a little more clear.
But that isn’t where we started. The same applies to the discussion of Radical Islam versus the West (or maybe even the rest). There are deep rooted historical conflicts between the Islamic nations and many in the west, not just the U.S. Bin Laden isn’t doing what he is doing because he feels betrayed over Afghanistan, his issues run much deeper than that and are even tied to the relationship his family and the Saudis have with the U.S. And bin Laden isn’t the cause of Radical Islam, he is a result of it. These things have been brewing for a long time. Our support of Israel is tied in there as well, but our support of Israel should continue to be non-negotiable. … I could go on and on, but I won’t
Let us all know when/where your thesis is published, I’m sure many here would be interested in reading it.
3:34 pm on November 18th, 2008 36
One other thing… I don’t remember who said it but I personally believe that Education is actually the cure for all the evils that plague mankind. Whoever thinks that conservatives are opposed to education is completely wrong. Every person in this country and in the world should be allowed to pursue the highest level of education they are capable of achieving.
4:32 pm on November 18th, 2008 37
GTL-What’s up with the missing lines?
F&B-It’s taking all I’ve got to grow old-No time to grow up!
Olberman uses facts and information as well as a logical and well thought out approach to his presentation. This could be quite confusing to the folks that have been swallowing the refuse that FIX News has been spewing for decades now. Veg probably watches Hannity because he’s so fair and balanced.
4:39 pm on November 18th, 2008 38
giardia, my apologies for mistaking your age ,although, with your lines of thought,coupled with your claim to be a full time student,and your use of the word “scored” in describing your friends acquisition of his new firearm, I dont believe that notion was completely out of line. with that said, you have then given up your excuse for hypocritical thought process. as far as your ability to come up with any reality based rebuttals, I think that is unlikely, but i will stick around, because i too enjoy the debate, I have no doubt we would find middle ground, if not outright agreement on many issues, it all comes back to what i stated earlier, which side of extremists would you like to align with. rational thinkers in this country are split in the middle and none are very far left or right of center. I would think that you and I’s core values are similiar.
the difference in this election was obama mobilized the ignorant and uninformed, with your help. Congratulations, now strap in and prepare for the consequences, your gonna have to feed the sheep.
5:18 pm on November 18th, 2008 39
I guess the fact that I’m in school would lead to an estimation of youth, but scored would be common vernacular for anyone that grew up on the west coast in the 60’s and 70’s (or failed to, as my friend F&B points out).
All right, I have a few minutes between washing a new batch of tie-dyes and writing a report on the diets of fur trappers so I’ll address this gibberish first..
“canada gives people food, france gives people food,
the united states gives people, freedom, justice, and liberty. we give them hospitals and schools and and sanitary water and sewage. we give any foriegner who desires it an ivory tower education so then they too can go bash america, then we happily defend that persons right to do that, with our lives. A liberal that I have some respect for once told me he felt the biggest difference between liberal and conservative thinking was that liberals see nuance in the answers to complicated questions and conservatives see black and white. I dont think he could have been more wrong. maybe closer to the truth would be to say conservitives tend to be more pragmatic than idealistic with the left leaning towards idealism often in the face of reality.
i have noticed the strong ability, to ignore what someone says or writes and interperet it in what ever manner fits best in their skewed idealism.”
It sounds like you’re referring to the ultimate failure of a fustercluck in Iraq, where we illegally invaded a soverign nation to take out the brutal dictator that was in power simply because we educated him, put him there, and kept him there with a variety of weaponry, all so that our oil companies, military industrial complex, and other related industries to profiteer for years upon years, wresting grotesque profits from the havoc they have been wreaking. We have blown up their hospitals, schools, infrastructure and have looted their museums and so on. The idea that some how they have benfited from our presensce is beyond ludicrous and suggesting we should stay is like asking the Germans to help fix up Poland in 1946. Your liberal friend was right. To support conservative ideologies right now in the face of overwhelming evidence that they are at best not sound and more likely utter nonsense is to suffer a complete disconnect from reality. Stella is up in Canada. Let’s ask him if he would like to switch their medical system to be like ours, where nearly 2 million people will file for bankruptcy this year simply because they can’t pay their medical bills. Let’s take trickle down, a term originally from the industrial revolution that get’s trotted out every few generations to a new batch of suckers. It doesn’t work. When you deregulate the money concentrates where the money already is-at the top. Every time. Let’s move on to something equally as conservative, equally as stupid, and equally as ineffective; abstinence only. Any time you try to advocate a position that less information will be of benefit you are doomed to failure, and frankly, the kids raised in these Christian families tend to be getting pregnant earlier and more often than in others. The so called liberal media is owned and controlled by right wing pro-war corporations and is anything but liberal. The rarity and uniqueness of Olberman speaks volumes in that regard.
There’s the buzzer-gotta go. I’ll clear up some more of your confusion and psychosis later. Peace!
5:42 pm on November 18th, 2008 40
with your defense of olberman I would have to take back what I said about you and I finding middle ground. I would put no more stock in what that propogandist says than I would limbaugh, your assesment of olbermans approach to reporting is frankly ridiculous. He is an unabashed idiologue who has no concept of balanced reporting. I would think that few of even his peers would argue that. For you to defend his views and reporting style in the manner that you did really reveals your position. i thought i might have found a place where moderate views from both sides could be rationally discussed, and maybe I have, but if that is your real opinion, then I know that level of discourse will not be reached in conversations with you. I would say the same of republicans who defend limbaugh. If your believing what either of those folks say, then your doing a disservice to yourself and your country. Why should we be surprised though, this coming from an adherent to the same political party that thinks Al Franken would be a positive addition to the senate. of course the majority of democrats are not even aware that their party controls the legislative branch of the gov’t. I guess Olberman forgot to tell them that.
8:24 pm on November 18th, 2008 41
we invaded an aggressor nation controlled by Brutal dictator who supported the attacks on 9/11. this dictator had already used biological and chemical weapons more than once, on people in his own country.
He was providing safe haven for islamic extremists from various countries to operate freely inside Iraq. this dictator had refused to cooperate for years with sanctions set by the united nations after the first gulf war when he had himself invaded a soveriegn country. I dont believe for a second that he had not aquired, in the least, the components required to create a nuclear explosion. these materials were swiftly moved to probably syria, but take your pick, they are still in terrorist hands. as far as your contention of our supposed support of Hussien,here is where a little realism comes into play. gov’ts have to play the hands they are dealt at times. for a short time he was the lesser of the evils in the region. Of course we had an interest in the region, they have oil, i assume you drive a vehicle, and i assume you use plastics and various other petroleum based products in your life. and i assume you support your cohorts demands that no drilling for oil take place where there is actually oil to be mined inside our country, so i cant follow the rational that our interests in the region are not neccesary. as far as educating him, well he can join the millions of other foreign nationals we have educated, is it your position that educating the worlds people in our universities is a bad policy? as far as blowing up there schools and hospitals, well you are just flat wrong. our military has gone to extensive lengths to not disrupt those very institutions. to say otherwise disrespects our men and women in the armed services and is wholley propaganda. one reason this conflict is still ongoing is due to the the military’s diligence in trying to not disrupt life in iraq unnecesarily. The big picture that the dogmatic miss is that this is not a war against iraq. this is a war against islamic extremism. the well chosen battlefield is Iraq. Now that we have stabilized iraq somewhat, big surprise, the bad guys go to afganistan and pakistan.
no place left safe for radicals in Iraq. of course to you this is a failure because when it comes to war there is no nuance in liberal opinion. so i guess to you a better approach to the problems in the middle east would have been to thank them for the attacks on 9/11 as a reminder that they are angry, and ask them if they had some time free to negotiate. Then they could attack again to remind us that they are not interested in negotiating. i guess a building or two full of innocent lives every now and then, or a barricks full of US soldiers or any of the countless viscious attacks these extremists have perpetrated over the last 30 years is a small price to pay for your version of “Peace”. i have employed 16 active and inactive afgan/iraq veterans over the years and to a man they have been proud of the accomplishments in iraq and have all said that the people were overwhelmingly in favor of their presence. the extremists have twisted the treatment they have recieved from their own gov’ts into being america’s fault. your equation of the US today to nazi germany really speaks to the irrelevancy of your opinion. The idea that the people of Iraq have not benefitted by our presence is beyond ludricous. the vast majority of iraqies did not have basic human rights under hussien. Ask an elderly black man in the deep south if he feels safer nower or if he felt safer in an era when standing up for basic human rights meant a midnight visit complete with a hanging noose.
That was hussiens’ Iraq.
Yes lets ask stella, but instead of asking him or her right now, when we are sure to get the socialist viewpoint, lets ask him when, after waiting several weeks to see his doctor. he is told he will be on a 2 year waiting list for the life saving surgery that he needs. Then lets ask him again after the surgery is botched by a gov’t flunkie Doctor. The examples are already available in our own country. Do you want the public health nurse at the free clinc performing your vasectomy or would you prefer it done by a trained physician in a state of the art facility. there is not one gov’t department that runs smoothley and the complexities in the medical field would only exasberate that issue. there we already have programs in place that insure that everyone in this country gets medical attention when they need it, even at a small scale these programs are slow and wasteful, one could only imagine the waste and abuse in a nationalized health care system. nobody with a legitimate medical emergency is turned away from medical help in this country. and your 2 million bankruptcy’s number is just flatly a lie
the actual number of bankruptcy filings due to medical bills is less than 200,000 this year. with about 60 percent of those brought about by smoking related illnesses. I did find an obscure reference by a left wing group that had somehow come up with a number of 2 million for the number of people affected by medical bill banruptcy, but were not specific in who the affected people were. just another example of liberals interpreting what they want regardless of what they read. I understand that there are cost issues associated with medical care and insurance that need to be addressed, and i dont have any brilliant ideas to change it. But i can say with conviction that letting the feds take over anything is a bad idea. this doesnt even addres how would financially reconcile this program when millions more illegal aliens invade our country for free major medical treatment. these programs can limp along and pass for a workable program in places like sweden where they keep the immigration laws restrictive and actually deport illegal aliens. I tell you one other thing about canadians and there medical system, the ones that can afford have serious medical work done right here in the usa.
I admittedly have little knowledge of what needs regulated and how much regulation we need. the countries whose markets were far more restrcive than ours didnt seeem to fare any better than our economy did. i will agree that some protections against individual greed might help but i cant say what they would be. I know as a business owner the more money i have the more people i employ the more i reinvset in my business. I also understand that we no longer live in a secluded enviroment and a business can easily move anywhere on the globe. I think once you go down the path of sticking it to the man, then you restrict growth, when you restrict growth you have fewer jobs,
when people are unemployed they dont spend money. when business are squeezed they look for ways to pass it on to the consumer. to punish businesses for being succesful is just backwards and petty. of course that is just what you and you cohorts promote. we are going to give money to the car companies because they are unsuccesful and we are going to take from succesful business’ because why? they supply to many jobs? they reinvest too much into the countries economic infrastructure? oh no it is just because you dont think enough has trickled down. personally ive never been one to stand around and let people trickle on me. I just go ahead and take responsibility for myself and go make some instead of take some. as far as the rest of your blather, I proudly, loudly and succesfully preached
abstinence to two very attractive teenage daughters.and not from a platform of religion but from a platform of common sense. but i never said i disagreed with some procreation education to students above elementary level. but i do feel personally that is an issue much better dealt with in the home than at school so I took responsibilty for my kids’ upbringing and did it myself as well. you liberals should try it sometime, the personal responsibility thing, it feels good to actually parent rather than leaving parenting up to the gov’t. your comment about christian pregnancies is just more made up nonsense, quit lying. im not defending christians here either, im defending truth. as afr as the liberal media comments…. your kidding right?
if not then you are probably the only person in the world who doesnt see the media liberal bias. actually with this latest election it moved out of the realm of hypothetical and has been statistically proven. watch zieglers documentary, how obama was elected, coupled with the zogby survey as supporting evidence it shows beyond a doubt where the msm lies in the political spectrum. “lies” is an apt analogy.
with the utmost lack of respect
vegofish
10:30 pm on November 18th, 2008 42
well…the GREAT news is that you’ll have at least 4 years to complain everyday….maybe 8 years…I know how it feels…the past 8 years I complained too.
Have Fun
11:09 pm on November 18th, 2008 43
G-Man — I dunno. We just upgraded a bunch of software so perhaps that could be causing a glitch? Updates are supposed to be available soon so hopefully that’s gonna iron out any glitches in the commenting system? Hope so…
Vego — Welcome, by the way
I don’t edit posts very often at all unless they are CLEAR violations of our commenting policy (see far-right sidebar for that explanation).
For the record, I haven’t edited a single word in this conversation, nor have I edited a single comment you’ve made
Please keep it up — we love discussion around these parts — left, right, middle, whatever — as long as we continue to attack the comment and stay away from attacking the commentator
11:31 pm on November 18th, 2008 44
Vegofish, actually no, again, food is the main portion of aid. And the US currently spends just 0.17 percent of gross domestic product.(George Monbiot) While the UK spends .36 per cent. So, as far as saving the world, it falls really really short. Also, I don’t know if you are implying that in anyway Canada is a recipient of your good will, well we’re not. If you spent as much time as myself devoted to the truth you would see that most people of the world are not either. My education is not some part of your aid. I also do my fair share of ‘bashing’ (as you put it, I call it ‘keeping accountable’) my own government, and those of other nations. And, as far as liberating the good people, remember, US is not the only country sending innocents to die in the middle east battling a monster, trained and reared by none other than our neighbour. I am sorry I am not being clear enough- I do study Islam in depth, I do know much about the roots of extremist muslims, as much as I know about Somalia, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Lebenon, Syria, Pakistan, Lybia, Yemen, UAE, Saudi (if any nation in the muslim world was one to worry about it would be Saudi) hey, did you know Somalis are muslim? Most of them are wonderful people. You should learn about Islam, and don’t get it confused with muslims or what muslims do. It would be the same approach I would take to Christianity and Christians. The words and the actions don’t always match, but Islam is a teaching of peace. I can provide names of good english translations of the Qur’an, and on exegesis done on Islam. Its really poetic, Just and above all, advocates peace.
And as far as solutions to problems, actually there are lots of them that don’t include weapons. The facts stand, it’s not an opinion. In coming up with solutions however, we need to recognize the causes. So, looking back is an excellent tool for preparing for the future. They are the case studies. What good would it be to implement hypothesis without looking into the past at what has happened and gone on so that we don’t make the same mistakes? The US has an unprecedented opportunity to change the realities that cause conflict. (I specialize in peace and post-conflict, globalization and governance in political studies and international relations). I attended a lecture by a man who worked at the UN for Canada, in the area of defence for thirty years and he had spent his career measuring and putting dollar values on the issues facing the world, like poverty (solve that and you’ve helped the problem of disease and conflict a great deal) and the environment, and he said their hands are tied. I have heard about the bully tactics used by US govt’ in the international world by so many of the world’s diplomats, that is why there is so much anti- americanism out there. I am sorry that the people espouse different values than thier gov’t, but thier gov’t doesn’t work on thier behalf. When you realize that, is when change for the good will happen.
I have some American friends and my folks lived in America working for several years (as well as China and Mexico) but my point is I know there are so many good people in America. It really hurts me to know that the people believe so certainly that their gov’t is doing what they themselves (presumably you, given you are so sure that is what is happening in your name) would be doing out in the world- like ensuring that there is clean water for people, etc, but it just isn’t the case.
How Bush was elected is still very important. Even if you voted for him, don’t you want to know your democracy is representative? Or don’t you care if it has been highjacked. Let’s not forget that democracy is not fail proof, and that it can be siezed by other interests other than the people’s any time under the guise of freedom and good will. It really is a matter of distinguishing when that has happened. The people in Germany didn’t think that it was a problem either with the rise of Nazism, which came to power through democracy. Also, democracy is not the only form of democratic govt’. Islam has the shur’a which is very similar, though they have been prevented in practicing it- and yes, for this, it matters that the US supports dictators when it suits thier political ends. Would the people of Iraq had shur’a if Saddam hadn’t been made so powerful by his allies?
As far as the crazy talk on socialism? Seriously, this is showing us in Canada just how…brainwashed? some of the people in America are, clearly. Being in Canada where we have both a private and a public health care system at work, I am so thankful I am not in a system that puts market over my wellbeing. However, this is beginning to change.
I don’t see how having government serve it’s people (a democracy= government of the people) and not for the corporations or letting corporations walk all over the people is a bad thing…if the gov’t isn’t for the people, who is it for? The americans who talk this way seem to be truly brainwashied into thinking that any kind of social net is a negative. It doesn’t make people lazier, it makes sure people are healthier and happier, and actually, more productive!…there are numbers out there to prove it…if you like numbers.
GDP isn’t a measure of wealth across a nation, your country has a lot of wealth as a nation, but being so great, why isn’t it shared more proportionately? There are people who starve in your own country!
Fandb,
thanks for letting me know how to post a pic.
I’m a woman by the way…I think Girardia called me a ‘him’, not that I really care, I am just clarifying. hehehe
To put the current troubles in somalia in context-it is very important to know the past, and the pirates are not pirates, actually they are warring with the bringers and distributors of aid, it is a standoff, because they don’t want the charity…it has destroyed their state.
btw, I read all media, mainstream, independant, and foreign, and with each I understand it only through the discretion and discernment I have aquired through a very intense education (both self and institutional)
Two of my closest friends (Canadian born) have lived and worked in Yemen, Lebanon, and Egypt and Pakistan, for many years. I am sorry, but what is extremist is the American mainstream media, and gov’t insisting that the muslims are some mono-culture and everyone is extremist by vitue of thier religion.
Actually, some guy in Egypt (I’ll find his name) sent BinLaden to lead the extremists in Afgansitan against the Socviets with American training and pay (income!) with the promise America would support an Islamic state there, and yes, resentments is what has directed their extremism toward the US. It is well understood by those of us, luckily us, who will influence the relations and policies of the west in the future…I pray to God (I do believe and hence, why I do what I do) that people like Palin who are after fat money and high status will never be in positions of power. I don’t think it is a party thing at all, and I don’t know what to expect from Obama however, I don’t think he’s a terrorist (that is just crazy) or an illegal. I think it is a matter of character, and if he is dedicated his life to Justice, than I am optimistic some justice will come to fore in the coming four years. I find it fasinating that so many republicans supported his nomination and asked him to run.
The majority of muslims are completely great people, just as the Americans. Actually, I am planning to go to Turkey and Syria in April/May, I am looking so forward to it.
anyway, I really gotta go- a half hour on here already, anyway, I am glad that I found this site, because I really think this kind of discussion is important, and it helps me to ‘practice’ I guess, how to respond to the kinds of arguments you’ve all presented. I am not dissing you in anyway, I really appreciate that people are discussing these things, because they are extremely, extremely important, and I realize not everyone has to think the same as I do, and I realize that 98.999% (?) will not be as fortunate or interested as I am to dedicate 10-12 hours of every day (no ‘weekends’ for me) to knowing about these very topics- concerning both the past and the future. I do plan to write a comprehensive proposal of what can be done, what solutions are within reach.
ps- for next time, why oil drilling is not safe or clean and so not the way for America to go. Palin lied when she said 5 years production before it was in market- at least 10 years (that is what experts say, she is no expert) and for being so certain there is usable gas, again, another fib. The experts won’t even say that. I live in Alberta Canada, a massive oil producing province in Canada. The rates of regional cancer due to oil production are unbelievable, the environment is so polluted (unavoidable with oil drilling) it is very depressing for those of us who care. America would be better to spend money producing alternatives and be a leader in clean energy. I say this as someone whose boyfriend and many friends , I myself at one time, worked in oil. More info on what they say about alaskas oil reserves is at http://www.usgs.gov, it is us geological survey site (the guys, like my boyfriend who looks for oil) these are the experts who tell gov’t that they ‘think’ it is probably oil. The only way to know is to drill. This is why there are only huge companies in oil, the small ones (there are some sometimes) usually go under because it is such a gamble. The experts who inform gov’t even say they don’t know that the gas in alaska can actually be used for anything- it requires so much processing, if they even can figure out how to do that.
Palin was VERY misleading in her representation of the truth of oil in alaska, and clearly to me, she works for big oil.
11:31 pm on November 18th, 2008 45
Hussein had zero to do with 911 but Bush probably did. The chemical weapons were made here in USA and donated by Pieceofcrap Reagan. The Islamist extremists you speak of hated Hussein more than us and did not cooperate with him, but because of the crimes we’re committing, supported by a bunch of ignorant jackasses, that all could change. Inspectors beforehand and troops afterward found nothing but ancient cancelled weapons programs. Zilch, nada. I worked on the cruise missile program for years so I’m well aware of our technical capabilities, but our intelligence is often wrong. We did a whole lot of damage. Hussein was a piece of crap but the people were a hell of a lot better off when he was there than now, or any time in the near future, and possibly for a long time to come. It’s not a fight against radical Islam, it’s a fight against poverty over there and sheer stupidity and greed over here; the stupid supporting the greedy. Get it? Funny, everyone I know that’s come back from Iraq wants to rip W’s throat out and twist it up his ass, and they voted for Obama! The Iraquis are about as thankful as we would be if China came in here to get the war criminal Bush out of office and set up permanent bases. Bush may be a cheating, thieving, lying, spying, murdering war criminal but at least he’s our cheating, thieving, lying, spying, murdering war criminal and I would defend him and this land at least as well as you would. As for using oil, I’ve structured my life so as to use very little. If the GOP insiders hadn’t have been trading future weapons for hostages for drugs and so on to keep Americans prisoner until dirtbag Reagan was elected, I mean stole the office, then this country would have continued to implement the painful but needed reforms to our gross overconsumption and we’d all be driving American made cars that get 120 miles to the gallon now. Your inability to see that America can and does have similarities to Nazi Germany is to demonstrate the exact mentality of those who, in Nazi Germany insisted the Jews were being relocated while they wore a recently acquired watch with some Jewish guys name on it. I love America but this country is headed in the wrong direction, THAT DIRECTION!
1:24 am on November 19th, 2008 46
thanks for the welcome i have been a silent participant for a little while now. I will follow the rules as closely as I can. I was basically joking about the editing. content editing would have been just about the last thing i would expect here. i think iwill enjoy the verbal abuse im sure to recieve. but just a glance at giardia’s latest post makes me think i will be given plenty of fodder for my own cannons.
vegofish
2:18 am on November 19th, 2008 47
wow, now that is a diatribe. if those are truly your views, and that is your “realistic rebuttal” to my comments then I am wasting my time here. you cant possibly believe some of that stuff you wrote. you are an idealogue of the first order. and no, i dont get it at all and am reasonably confident i dont care to. when you start right off saying that 9/11 was a presidential conspiracy well… like i said im at a loss for words.
you and rosie odonnell. the true believers.
that statement has about as much credibility as reagan cheating us out of 120 mile per gallon cars. uh huh.
why then if he took them away 25 years ago have they not resurfaced in this more enlightened time. i havent seen anything advertised close to 120 miles to the gallon.
there was indeed a presidential cause to the 9/11 attacks i’ll give you that, 8 years of failed foreign policy by the democrat clinton culminated in the attack on 9/11 so you were half right. a president caused it.
the closest thing ive seen to nazi germany in my life is this mindless bunch of imbecilic sheeples wandering around saying o baaaa ma o baaaa ma . the cultish aura that surrounds this whole candidicy is very jim jones.
you were also correct in that every few generations a batch of suckers come along and they vote in a democrat.
thank the almighty great and kind and wonderful and all powerful and all giving god for term limits
well that is all for this commentary, good luck with life giardia, perhaps someday a bit of happiness will find its way into your life and you will see that life in this world isnt nearly as bad as you think.
2:30 am on November 19th, 2008 48
I’ll definitely provide some fodder, and since you’re not right about much you give me plenty of fodder too. Stick around.
I think you missed my point with Olberman. Until Rachel Maddow got her awesome new show he was clearly and obviously the only pundit in the MSM with a strong lean to the left, unlike the hundreds of talking heads spinning hard to the right. The media is heavily tilted right. There are huge numbers of people in this country that are much further to the left than the so-called far left like Olberman. Head to the back woods someday, where far left goes full circle to become far right. Heavily armed hippies. Bikers in tie-dyes. Pot growers listening to Rush Limbaugh. If the media really was tilted to the left there would be primetime shows that looked like a combination of High Times and Hustler with a twist of Outlaw Biker.
2:38 am on November 19th, 2008 49
That’s right. I have always been so unhappy, but now that the Messiah has been elected the world is going to be peaches and cream forever!
It’s crazy, isn’t it, all these people that still believe in America, and that believe in themselves, and in the inherent goodness of the human race, and that believe in the possibility of a better future for their children. Crazy, crazy sheeples.
Good luck yourself veg. Peace.
2:41 am on November 19th, 2008 50
Actually George Bush and Jim Jones have a lot more in common in a “cult” sorta way. Total Mind Control through fear…winning through intimidation…yep.
George Bush will probably pardon Cheney on his way out of office…freakin criminal.
4:14 am on November 19th, 2008 51
im still waiting for a sensible, realistic rebuttle to my commentary.
10:22 am on November 19th, 2008 52
Well your defense of the Iraq war is straight out of 2003 FIX News talking points nonsesns/lies and has been thoroughly debunked with even most of the righties agreeing now. Your whole premise that the people in the region just move around at will and cooperate with each other is naive at best and racist more likely. These various tribes have been warring with each other for about 3500 years and did not work together to attack us. Even if Iraq had been an excellent battle field for us, which it wasn’t, we had no right to go into their country because they had zero to do with it. First it was for weapons of mass destruction, then something else, then something else, and lately we’re nation building. This is imposing our culture on another against their will. A respectful and intelligently cautious society is careful to not impose their culture because what is right for us is not right for everyone and the resultant societal destabilization that occurs, besides being bad for the people we are bothering, likely will return to bite us in the ass.
The idea that Bush had something to do with 911 may be far fetched but the idea that nothing like that could happen here in America is a lot more far fetched, and maybe if the Bush administration had cooperated with an investigation instead of blocking it at every opportunity, and maybe if they didn’t exploit the aftermath so quickly, thoroughly and systematically that it would appear they new it was coming, and maybe if we didn’t have footage of our so called leader reading “Hogan’s Pet Goat” to kids with no surprise or concern whatsoever, then maybe a fifth of all Americans wouldn’t believe this.
If you still don’t get my point with Olberman, that he stands out because he’s been the ONLY “far-left” talking head in the MSM then maybe you could give me a list of the others that I have been searching for but somehow have missed. Besides, he is an entertainer, just like Limbaugh is, and I enjoy both of them, although Limbaugh pisses me off a lot more often than Olberman does. And you talk of juevos; Olberman is the ONLY MSM pundit to openly challeng Bush and his disgusting crime syndicate on the public airwaves. I’m surprised he hasn’t disappeared into extraordinary rendition. And please tell me you don’t think that grabbing people and holding them indefinitely witout legal cause and torturing them has been a successful policy.
Got other things to do but if those aren’t intelligent enough for you you are living in the other side of the looking glass, which I suspect when you say you can’t find common ground with someone who watches Olberman.
Peace!
10:25 am on November 19th, 2008 53
Besides, I’m still waiting for you to generate some sensible and realistic commentary!
10:51 am on November 19th, 2008 54
GTL- this thing is gettin’ quirkier. Stellarsoulartist made a large, and brilliant, entry that I tried to follow here but it didn’t show up.
11:00 am on November 19th, 2008 55
Hey, G — and others — I see what you all are talking about. This new version of WordPress we use for hosting is a Beta version and hopefully the bugs will all be ironed out once the official release is in play — should be days from now at most.
In the meantime, your “lines” of text are all there. One thing I’ve found works is to highlight the text and the missing lines magically appear. Acceptable? Nope, but a decent enough workaround while WP gets their bugs ironed out.
Sorry for any inconvenience to all. I’m glad y’all aren’t letting it get in the way of some FANTASTIC dialogue spanning across all sides of the political spectrum.
Last but not least — it’s GREAT to see so many new commentators/co-bloggers here — PLEASE stay and PLEASE make this one of your regular Blogospheres “homes”
11:05 am on November 19th, 2008 56
GTL-Stella’s post still doesn’t work and I had the same results on another thread now.
11:19 am on November 19th, 2008 57
G — like I said, highlight and drag your mouse (turning the text area blue) and you’ll see each post in its entirety
11:27 am on November 19th, 2008 58
GTL-Her entire post failed to register here. I got the entry on my email, clicked it and read her post as an email, then tried to follow the url but when I got to your site it was not there at all.
11:31 am on November 19th, 2008 59
Oh hell, I see — I dunno, G… not sure what happened there at all. My apologies to her and all of our other co-bloggers. Hopefully this thing will get ironed out and quick!
1:16 pm on November 19th, 2008 60
stella your views are so completely skewed by anti american idealism that you tend to be nearly unreadable.
you and your statistics completely disregard reality in the world. your walt disney views on humanity are dangerous. they are precisely the views that resulted in the 9/11 attacks on this country which im sure you feel were deserved. your numbers are certainly as liberaly skewed as yours anti american views. just gibberish statistics. Once again no surprise, there has been a long standing anti american attitude in canada, the result of knowing that canada is completey dependent on america to survive. get over it, your not alone. a large portion of the world depends on america for their economic well being and physical safety and it pisses alot of them off, hence this misconception of diplomats being “bullied” by US policy. they understand they need to follow our lead but it pisses them off. it is petty. the greater good of all humanity is at stake and people like you belittle it and think if we would all just hold hands for a bit then we will all feel warm and fuzzy. gee i wonder why nobody thought of that before the last 3 or 4 thousand years of war took place. maybe because it is just not the reality of human nature.
1:35 pm on November 19th, 2008 61
veg-it seems your ideas are so skewed by pro American sentiment that you are hard to read. This IS the greatest country in the world, so long as you understand that great is not more good than good, like Krakatoa was a great explosion. We are not God’s gift to the world, and although I believe that the world has benefited more from our presence than it has suffered, the issue is certainly debatable. It certainly has not been a one way street where our presence has been one blessing after another. Get over yourself.
1:37 pm on November 19th, 2008 62
while you deride our intersts in the middle east you refuse to acknowledge the neccesity of energy independence. liberals in general oppose every available form of viable domestic energy producing options.
you oppose, fossil fuels, hydro, nuclear, wind. liberal hypocrisy is at the root of the problems in nearly every issue we face today. as you complain about big corporations and their greed and not enough of them trickling down on your empty heads. YOUR elected leaders are right now fighting each other to get in line in front of the tv cameras and explain why we need to give 3 of the largest corporations in the world BILLIONS of tax payer dollars to pay for their own gross mismanagement, and the democrat supported and legalized extortion referred to as labor unions.
billions that could be spent developing alternative domestic energy sources or feeding stellas starving are going into the pockets of the idiots who refused to acknowledge what was right before their faces and continued manufacturing gas guzzling status symbols for hypocrit liberal yuppies. democrats are doing this.
YOUR leaders. how can you reconcile such hypocrisy?
1:57 pm on November 19th, 2008 63
Right. Liberals oppose wind. Conservatives have been in power but liberals caused all the problems. We must all support the bailout. Stella is hungry (along with everyone else suffering the ravages of socialism). Republicans would have had the car companies making more efficient cars if only they had a little more power, and they would have developed new sources of energy too. It only looked like they blocked every attempt at that.
Veg-Is Alice in their with you on the other side of the looking glass. I thought you said you weregoing to say something intelligent.
2:04 pm on November 19th, 2008 64
absolutely positively pro american, thank you very much,
this is with out a doubt the greatest nation in the world. in the early to mid part of the last century
the world BEGGED us to spread american ideals and assist weaker nations in the fight against tyranny and facism and communism. BEGGED US. literally. we were apprehensive, but, knowing that all folks deserved basic human rights we relented and did just what they wanted us to do. twice during that time WE saved the world from tyranny . we fought battles so that other countries peoples could live in peace and having the basic human rights our constitution guarentees us.
the world placed us on the pedestal of the the greatest power in the world, not us, the world. almost immediatly the hypocrits on the liberal side began there attacks and created the myth of america,the evil aggressor nation. anti war liberals see NO reason for war. I respect that, I think it is completely and unfortunately in direct contrast with reality, but i respect it. but anti amercanism soleley because we are the greatest nation in the world and people continue to ask us to help them. i cannot respect. immigrate to sweden or canada or france illegaly today and they kick you out tommorrow.immigrate to america illegaly today and tommorrow your working, your kids are in school,
and your wife is in the hospital giving birth to our newest american citizen all payed for by US tax dollars. ya canada is great and america sucks.
in the words of who im sure is one of your heroe’s
hugo chaves. just shut up.
2:23 pm on November 19th, 2008 65
your right hypocrit liberal environmentalist are all for wind energy, they are just opposed to building the farms to produce it.
we-oppose-windfarms.tripod.com/index.html – Cached
cacique.uprm.edu/aceer/pdfs/opposewindfarm.pdf
it is not up to democrats or republicans to MAKE any private company manufacture anything. although i know you liberal dems think you should be able to. and I’m sure that is why the liberal democrats are so excited
to give these clowns billions of tax payer dollars. they think then they will be able to tell them what to do. just more hypocrisy. liberals cheerlead for civil liberties when really they just want to control every aspect of what we do.
2:24 pm on November 19th, 2008 66
This notion of the world putting us on a pedestal as the Top Super Power is pretty wild…I hear what your saying but we shouldn’t come close to believing the hype. If that were the case, we would’ve gone over to China and North Korea to get rid of their weapons of mass destruction. I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
America being a Utopia is in the past. Old traditional ways of doing Big business based on corportate greed is crumbling and it will take new innovation and ways of doing global commerce to succeed. First, we have to admit we’re f*cked right now before we can move forward….kinda like an alcoholic admitting he/she is an alcoholic before we can progress.
America is not the Super Power anymore. It’s not what it once was…sorry charile…this isn’t the 18th or 19th century when that was true.
2:31 pm on November 19th, 2008 67
too funny. this administration has funded far more alternative energy research than the clinton/gore administration ever did. but hey ive got an idea
lets blame bush. he is to stupid to do anything, but he did everything. debating with liberals is like going to a hypocrisy festival.
2:40 pm on November 19th, 2008 68
or 20th century quite naturally….
3:00 pm on November 19th, 2008 69
totally agree we are presently effed. leaders from both parties have sold out to greed. almost everyone in america has looked in the mirror and said i need to control my own spending get off the credit card spin cycle and live within my means, which i have personally been doing all along but still can find ways to be more efficient. everbody realizes that, kudo’s to them. everbody understands we cant defecit spend and spend. my biggest bitch with bush, deficit spending, tempered only slightly by the fact that i understand we are fighting an expense war at our own cost that will eventually make the middleeast and the world a better safer place and has to a great extent already acieved that goal. people understand though from their own experience that spending and spending with no money to spend doesnt work. so what do the liberals do?
they send the biggest tax and spend democratic liberal they can find to the whitehouse. disregard candidates with proven track records of decreasing spending while increasing revenues…without raising taxes(yes you can do it)simply over god and abortion dont check the records that back up the claims of fiscal conservity
just bash em because they beleve in a higher power, so obviously they are ignorant. The ultimate hypocrisy.
we are the premiere free nation in the world. to say otherwise is to ignore the facts. when our economy failed, the world economy failed, while very few want to leave, millions risk there lives and leave their families to get here. and again i say we did not put us on the pedestal the world did. we are as close to utopia as humanity has achieved. even as things go bad it is still the best. and our time as the leaders of the free world is far from over. 2 year from now it will be a whole new set of issues, you liberal whining hypocrits will be bashing obama when the reality of failed promises sinks in and we will still be on the pedastal.
3:20 pm on November 19th, 2008 70
One of the problems with liberals is that so many of them are completely clueless when it comes to the facts. Facts about history, politics, technology – you name it, most liberals are clueless.
The U.S.A. has been considered to be a “superpower” since about the end of WWII.
It is further demonstrated by a recent Zogby poll that showed MOST people who voted for Obama were unable to correctly identify the following:
“…83% failed to correctly answer that Obama had won his first election by getting all of his opponents removed from the ballot, and 88% did not correctly associate Obama with his statement that his energy policies would likely bankrupt the coal industry. Most (56%) were also not able to correctly answer that Obama started his political career at the home of two former members of the Weather Underground.
Nearly three quarters (72%) of Obama voters did not correctly identify Biden as the candidate who had to quit a previous campaign for President because he was found to have plagiarized a speech…” (Zogby International, 11/18/2008)
And even: “…57% of Obama voters were unable to correctly answer that Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate…” (Zogby International, 11/18/2008)
Maybe the liberals would be giving the congress a better rating if only they realized that liberals were in the majority…
LMFAO at that one.
3:23 pm on November 19th, 2008 71
the liberal hypocrisy is quite thick around here, but i think i’ll stick around, because for one you are less malicious than many of your counterparts and,
hey baby, we all know gun control means 3 in the black.
at least i know there IS common ground.
3:33 pm on November 19th, 2008 72
The reality is that it has been THICK all the way around…no matter if your far right/left/liberal/outside/inside/upsidedown/sideways…whatever the label we want to use…if we get past the labeling, all points of view have a crutch in there somewhere….being self-righteous will not cure this…just ask or look at George Bush.
“The U.S.A. has been considered to be a “superpower” since about the end of WWII.”…as I said earlier, that’s great and all but the reality is that we’re not what we once were…no matter how many polls are out there…again if we were all that and a bag of chips we would’ve gone into China and North Korea by now because of weapons of Mass Destruction.
If you think we’re stronger than China right now then I want that stuff your smokin.
3:34 pm on November 19th, 2008 73
i made a statement in another blog early on that this election stood to be decided by the lowest average intelligence ever in a presidential election. of course i had no facts to back that up in october, just an opinion i had. and of course i was called a racist and a bigot among other things. i just saw that obama was mobilizing the uninformed the ignorant and, the worst, the underinformed overeducated idealistic.(ie young college students) they knew nothing about the candidates abilty to govern but man he is cool.
well it would appear that the facts do indeed back up my contention
3:36 pm on November 19th, 2008 74
Gotta Boogie…”Giralda” I’m sure you’ll take it from here lol
3:38 pm on November 19th, 2008 75
the people in america are guarenteed to have individual liberty. the people in korea and china do not. do i need say more.?
3:41 pm on November 19th, 2008 76
Oh one last thing…talkin about mobilizing the ignorant…you must’ve meant George Bush and John McCain…Bush was a genius in mobilizing the ignorant…as a matter of fact, John McCain captured that same audience…there was a high level of ignorant voters coming out for him…pretty much the same one’s that voted for Bush…that’s not to say that some of Obama voters are not ignorant but please GET REAL!
3:58 pm on November 19th, 2008 77
“the people in america are guarenteed to have individual liberty. the people in korea and china do not. do i need say more.?”
Yes you do. The point is that we are not the super power we used to be…we can’t stomp into China and get rid of their weapons of mass destruction without getting our a**es kicked. Times have changed.
3:59 pm on November 19th, 2008 78
additionally china is producing right now. with complete disregard for environmental safety and human safety. they are drilling, they are mining, they are logging, they are manufacturing. they are growing and they are not going to let little things like environmental destruction or dead and injured workers get in our way. those commodities are in high demand right now because many countries are not producing.
we are one of them. we are presently depending rather than producing. we have the safest, strictest standards in the world for enviromental safety and worker safety. chinas gov’t is not saddled with things like workers comp, medicaire, social security or an environmental protection agency. dont argue that by stating these things that i think this sound way to operate. i dont
i bring it to make a point. quit mixing apples and oranges, yes china has more money right now than the US but in this light does that mean they are better?
I think not.
just more liberal hypocrisy
we have the strictest sandards and the finest cleanest technology available for utilizing out natural resources but it is never good enough for the hypocrit liberal environmental extremists who try to stop ANY development ANYWHERE, ANYTIME. we have firms that happily operate under these tight standards, the days of raping the resource are long gone. the mining and oil and logging and fishing industries are the ones who have developed these clean technologies AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE. it is bad business to operate in anecologicaly unsafe manner. the people left in the business understand this , the pollution days of the 70’s are gone. the industrie has moved above and beyond the extremists have not
4:03 pm on November 19th, 2008 79
i would question if there has ever been a time we could have “stomped into china” without getting our asses kicked. get real
4:05 pm on November 19th, 2008 80
Obama faces racism in West Virginia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-q4MDQ0cDI
How many of these ignorant folks were easily mobilized to vote for McCain ya think?
4:05 pm on November 19th, 2008 81
military might is not the only measure of power
4:10 pm on November 19th, 2008 82
And our economy obviously isn’t another measure of power either..which are two areas of major strength for China and other nations. In both areas we’re VERY weak, which we were not in the 20th century.
We’ve lost our advantages relying on other countries to bail us out, grabbing our ankles.
4:13 pm on November 19th, 2008 83
k gone for now…been fun
4:16 pm on November 19th, 2008 84
just for the sake of middle ground lets say the white bigots cancel out the black bigots. that leaves a lot of ignorant people left for obama to mobilize.
if you are so sure i am wrong on this one then you have the opportunity to prove it.
ziegler has offered to pay for the price of the polling if the results could be duplicated using republican voters. go for it, but i wouldnt put it on my credit card expecting ziegler to have to pay.
liberals prefer to remain gleefully uninformed generally proud of it as near as i can tell
4:25 pm on November 19th, 2008 85
totally agree. borrowing from from others to support the sheep has effed us good,
thank you sheep.
so you think obama is gonna change that?
maybe his plan to spend a trillion dollars
a year on top of the 700 billion we are throwing down the **itter. will get us out of debt to china. ya thats it, that will work.
4:39 pm on November 19th, 2008 86
k screw lunch…this is more entertaining and insightful:
vegofish…I see why you said folks called you a racist and a bigot in one of your previous comments. If one was black and voted for Obama then they were ignorant and a Bigot…k got it now…thanks for educating the rest of the masses on your self righteousness…I know it must be tough having such right wing Superior intelligence. Your equation of how many “left over” black bigots for obama outweigh john McCain’s is a stretch also. I didn’t see anyone on TV after John McCain because he was white. Did you?
It was this line of thinking that kept the GOP from attracting new voters this time around…maybe they will not make the same mistake again.
6:54 pm on November 19th, 2008 87
another case of liberals reading what they want to see and not what was written. Nice job. i’m not quite sure how you interpreted that out of what i wrote but then i’m not surprised, just another case of liberal interpretation. please just read what is written and respond as such.
it is impossible to debate with people that make things up. i’m not going to bother correcting you because that would be a waste of time.
6:59 pm on November 19th, 2008 88
lol..making things up…it’s your words not mine.
7:39 pm on November 19th, 2008 89
k I’m out…fun fun…I love it when they do goes by fast.
GTL, your site continues to Rocks bro!
“J”
7:40 pm on November 19th, 2008 90
thats what you did. your response had little to do with what i said. actually it was a senseless rant during which you were insulting. not worth bothering to correct. you imagined what wasn’t there or in other words ” made it up.”
your not worth the time I have spent on this response. your insulting and your statements are ignorant and wrong.
8:12 pm on November 19th, 2008 91
actually your comments are insultating…especially to all the black folks you’ve called ignorant and just “maybe” they voted for Obama for more reasons than just race.
If your gonna dish it out be prepared.
8:12 pm on November 19th, 2008 92
“insulting and ignorant”
9:00 pm on November 19th, 2008 93
whatever, try actually reading the posts.
9:03 pm on November 19th, 2008 94
yawn
9:11 pm on November 19th, 2008 95
try actually re-reading your own posts and you’ll see where it all fell apart.
9:12 pm on November 19th, 2008 96
sorry for being so rude as to not say hi properly to the kindly folks here- funny and balanced JerrySpringerLivesinGOP, knowledgable and kind Girardia, and Fandb (we may not see eye to eye, but you are respectful) thanks for your welcoming words and yeah, I think I’ll be hanging out here for a while, sure is some good discussion going on and GTL offers some great analysis. Thanks GTL for your hosting this shiznit. I like your BIO.
I am not a condecending person, but I gotta ask… what are you Vego? a goat? I thought you were just a vegan who didn’t know the ‘rules’- vegans don’t eat fish, or sheep, or eggs, or milk, or cheese or….
I don’t claim a fact as being the truth, but only a reflection there of, and if it holds with all other informations I compare it to, I quote it. Facts are facts vego- I might point our that it is YOUR gov’t that produced those numbers on what aid as percentage of GDP is ‘aid’= $19 billion (numbers under Bush in 2006, before the libs were the legislative branch!). Again, a denial of facts you really should not feel too proud about- the legislative branch has only been mostly liberal for the last two years of Bush’s reign. but even if it were true it has been lib for eight years, it would be highly skewed logic then to argue that the bush regime is all good, but what liberals don’t realize is that the legislative branch has been liberal all this time, and that liberals are bad. you should move from the partisan polarization talk anyway to something more constructive. We all recognize there is good on both ’sides’ don’t we?
Being Canada’s biggest trade partner and Canada being ‘dependant’ are two VERY different things. Actually, it would seem America is a little more ‘dependant’ on our natural resources than we are on you buying them. But besides that, we have a higher standard of living, and we live longer, and we are happier, and we are smarter. hmmm. Have you checked US rankings in the world in any one of these categories? You’re falling behind, and it seems some of you want to defend that fact, while thankfully many more others (who I presume are not falling behind- who are keeping your average as good as it is, and don’t want to melt in the pot) are interested in changing it. GO AMERICANS! I’m a fan actually, I really like most Americans. I am not anti-america at all and if you had read what I posted you’d have read that, but in the case you read it and didn’t understand- I am not too proud to criticise what needs to be criticised, especially because I recognize that so many have died for my right to do so and it is my DUTY to do so in order to preserve that right. Oh, but maybe you think America was the only country fighting in WWII. What I have yet to find an appreciation for are those who are as arrogant as they are ignorant, whatever brand they be.
you better hope no other Canadians hear you say you *think* we are dependant on the US. Not all Canadians are as nice as I am. Personally, I think it is soooo funny that I am gonna tell people here that there is this American online who actually says this stuff.(Don’t worry, I will also tell them about the balanced and reasonable folks here, too) Usually, we assume there’s a few ugly ones, but I’ve not had the chance to actually meet one, online or otherwise. I’ve only ever heard the stories.
I’m not gonna hold your hand, vegofish, nooo. It may be warm and fuzzy, but I’m still not gonna hold it.
I spend 10-12hrs a day on gov’t and politics, and I’m not gonna tell you who I work for- and you? what credibility can you offer us…CNN watcher? just a really keen intuition you go on? you’d like to have a beer with Bush?
you make poor excuses for why your own facts don’t stand (the ones I present you), and you offer only one liner attack comments on superficial grounds with the usual rhetoric. The only comments here I read that fit your projectionistic attacks are the ones stating they are not going to waste their time being open to other’s info unless it’s thier own unsupported info…vegofish, who is in a fantasy world?
if you care about your country’s soverignty you better care to pay your debters off. it isn’t just a matter of ‘foreign debt’ load, it is a matter of ‘ownship’.
you should travel a bit and see that the world is actually wonderful place full of friendly beautiful people- most of the poorest would open their doors and share their food (I know this for a fact, but I also know, they are all poor out there waiting for hand outs), and the majority of the people are interested in peace and not war…even the muslim ones! (btw they’re people, too.) You really should also look into the history of war pre-grecko-roman empire, it’s drastically different than what you might be thinking given your comment that implied a static condition of warfare. People rarely ‘fought’ to kill- yeah! I know! It shocked me too! (But what shocked me more was learning when I was a child that people actually fought to kill.) FACT: Before agrarian society, warfare amongst nomadic tribal groups (the only people on earth) was primarily symbolic to settle disputes, rarely did it take life. But even if you go back only as far as WWI you will find the common thread in the all modern wars…I won’t lecture you on that though… maybe later
I’ll let you in on another aptitude of mine- I’ve completed third year ‘history of human conflict’ at THE canadian military college. wowee, hey!? I’m not really into institutions (not into highschool, I had a racist teacher who told me what to think (I’m fully against teaching opinion) so I dropped out 6 months before grad, I am a bit of a radical that way- can’t stand it when people try to teach me their opinions), but I am into knowledge, and that does cause me some distress actually, people with it know how troubling it is. I get a little depressed sometimes thinking about where we’re headed on this current path- and so I do what I can to change the status quo, and then I think of all the cool people interested in the doing the same, like GTL hosting this awesome site and exercising his power, and the other posters here who speak with respect and moderation for others in pursuit of and in exercise of this most democratic medium.
And then I think of the really awesome things we can do, and that there ARE solutions (look them up! or get creative yourself!) so I suck it up and strive for merely a shadow of the ideal. That is all I can do. Idealism? I wish. But I think not, it doesn’t live here! I’m just not dellusional or misinformed thinking that Bush and gang was good for security, I do not blame the wrong people for that insecurity, and I know war is not in my best interest or that of my brothers and sisters and fellow earthlings (all of the creators creatures, I’m no specieist either), it has become quite a business, inflated like the economy (I know whose interests it’s in). Whose is idealistic? “Bush did more good than bad, Bush is looking out for my interests and wellbeing, we don’t need to pay our debts, we’re good and they are bad so if we kill them all bad will be gone, we bring the world what they need to survive and everyone depends on us (a whole lot less than you think, but go ahead and think that if it makes you feel good)” idealism= your words, not mine!
You are taking swings at me vego, but your arms are way too short.
9:29 pm on November 19th, 2008 97
vego- yes, there was a time America could have “stomped into Korea” in particular, and not got their asses kicked- right after the cold war in Korea woulda worked and maybe then in China too (pre-industrial Korea and China and a broken soviet union might have been a strategically sound time). Times HAVE changed.
9:32 pm on November 19th, 2008 98
okay jerry so what you say then is that only black folks are ignorant, and only black folks are bigots?
that is what you are obviously saying, that you, jerryspringerlivesingop, feel that only black folks can be ignorant and only black folks can be bigots, and only black folks can be uninformed and only black folks can be uninformed overeducated idealistic students. those are very disturbing opinions for you to have. you would be considered a racist almost anywhere in the world with views like that jerry, i cant even imagine how somebody can have those opinions. very disturbing that you should hold those views jerry. shame on you for your racist bigoted comments
9:33 pm on November 19th, 2008 99
Korea had a war that left them really weak, but that would not have been a good time, because then the us would have had to fight the soviets which they did through the proxy war in Korea and as a result destroyed Korea, and divided Korea into north and south- but when the soviet union broke, north korea was still very poor and very exposed, now that is a different story.
9:37 pm on November 19th, 2008 100
someone, GLT? I still don’t know what to do to post my pic, I am sure it isn’t priority for GTL, so someone, anyone? tell me? I went to gravatar and loaded a bunch of pics (only one of myself) and they are all ‘G’ rated, but do I have to download a plug-in to get it follow me here? If so, which plug-in do I use? WordPress?
9:41 pm on November 19th, 2008 101
The Wolfs and Dogs are howling now…vegofish…you’ve gotten pretty DESPERATE at defending your own ignorant comments…but feel free to keep digging your own ditch. It’s very amusing. I’ve been on this site a lot longer than you so folks on here know EXACTLY where I’m coming from and where you stand. The problem is that everyone can your read your thread and my thread and can see where the shoe dropped.
Only you can stop the bleeding…
9:45 pm on November 19th, 2008 102
great info on korea stella and off hand here i probably dont disagree. problem is my comment was on china.
what is it with libs? problem reading the english language? im sure i leave typo’s andmisspell frequently and probably butcher grammar as well, but, if cant read the difference between korea and china, then you are obviously suffering the same affliction as jerry.
lets call it selective perception syndrome
9:52 pm on November 19th, 2008 103
sounds really good…I’m excited and truly hope that the GOP will not change their line of thinking and will probably loose in 2012; if this is the way the GOP (far right) continues to think and take action by blaming everyone esle. The intelligent thing to do is have a strong organized GOP campaign, with a strong GOP Presidential ticket and stop pointing fingers at everyone else outside your party…heck while your at it, try to reclaim all those republicans that left your party to vote for Obama or Ron Paul etc…
Clean your own house. You’ve got 4 years to do it.
9:53 pm on November 19th, 2008 104
“everyone else”
9:56 pm on November 19th, 2008 105
oh and a strong GOP political campaign message/theme that resonates with the American people, (especially the middle class), might help also.
10:22 pm on November 19th, 2008 106
vegofish
3:38 pm on November 19th, 2008 75 the people in america are guarenteed to have individual liberty. the people in korea and china do not. do i need say more.?
Need I say more?- you were talking about liberties? and did mention only china only in the ’stomping into’ scenario I think, maybe because you don’t know about Korea as well? but I do and also applied it to Korea, along with China in my comment, since we’re talking about S.E. Asia.
10:25 pm on November 19th, 2008 107
Vego-
Nowhere more than here do I smell ‘idealism’:
(in your words…)
“we have the strictest sandards and the finest cleanest technology available for utilizing out natural resources but it is never good enough for the hypocrit liberal environmental extremists who try to stop ANY development ANYWHERE, ANYTIME. we have firms that happily operate under these tight standards, the days of raping the resource are long gone. the mining and oil and logging and fishing industries are the ones who have developed these clean technologies AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE. it is bad business to operate in anecologicaly unsafe manner. the people left in the business understand this , the pollution days of the 70’s are gone. the industrie has moved above and beyond the extremists have not”
10:30 pm on November 19th, 2008 108
keep dreaming, for all that dreaming something might just materialize. Might it descend from the sky? …rise from the sea? …be brought by intelligent life forms from far away galaxies? I too am hoping, I just don’t see it yet.
I dunno what your idea of ’strict’ is, but they, like the economy are pretty ‘laissez-faire’ (laissez-faire means left alone, being Canadian I’m also bilingual) hey, do you cook on teflon?
10:36 pm on November 19th, 2008 109
Hey-I’m back. Boy did this thing ever catch fire while I was in my cultural anthropology class. I’ll jump right in on the environment, since I feel our environmental laws are a toothless joke and need to be increased tenfold. Veg-I’m sure you feel that pollution is being managed at an acceptable level, or even too aggressively. Perhaps global warming is a myth. Tiny man couldn’t possibly effect the climate.
10:47 pm on November 19th, 2008 110
Veg-I’m wondering why you’re so venemous and hateful. We all disagree here to some extent, some more than others of course, but it’s usually pretty friendly. Take the conversations I have with F&B for example. I can’t speak for him, but my impression is that he has similar views to yours and yet conversing with him is informative and often amusing. We find common ground, not much mind you, but we both realize that this great country, this great planet for that matter, is full of people with different views. America is not perfect but you seem to take the attitude that any criticism of her is an attack, no matter how mild. Until you can accept that we are just trying to identif problems and then maybe solve them your never ending ditribes are just hurting America. STOP HURTING AMERICA!!!
11:00 pm on November 19th, 2008 111
“just trying to identify problems and then maybe solve them your never ending diatribes are just hurting America.
Anyway, I’ll get one more shot in before catching Olberman and eating some fresh Rocky Mountain Brook Trout. Brookies! Yum!
The only way this bailout for the car companies makes sense is if we force them to start making super efficient cars. We can see what a great job the free market did there. So much for that stupid hogwash. A little central control with some planning and foresight will go a long way towards building a product line that doesn’t suck up our resources like there’s no tomorrow while trashing the planet too. Of course, if that’s what we really needed, then the all perfect free market would have provided it for us already.
11:17 pm on November 19th, 2008 112
free market ‘regulatory’ state so it’s called with such little regulation works only for big corporate conglomerates. How are SMEs (small medium enterprises) doing in America? The more our gov’t steps back, the more we become slaves of the corporations. I don’t wanna be a wal-martian. what is a good state model? well, look at the developmental state models of Japan, Korea and China for instance. All with varying and greater degrees of gov’t intervention than in the west, but it has worked! And with a liberalization of the state and market, it fell apart at the hands of the US controlled WB, but when they did a U-turn because of the destabalization of other economies, the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese did what they knew to do, intervene and regulate, and they recovered in miraculous time! Anyway, GDP isn’t everything, many many poor people who are poorer in a nastier kind of way than before industrialization(scouring the dumps for salvageable goods and food, not because they are lazy(!) but because there just isn’t jobs for everyone in the liberalized economy, and with liberalization, there was no social safety net, which is simply humanitarian not socialist) (better thank your lucky stars vego that isn’t you or your parents in the trash heap). Contrary to farrr right extremist econ talk about liberalizing the economy and minimizing gov’t (don’t even know what is in their own interests- that being a balance)- the South East Asian countries had the World Bank eating their words, twice.
12:41 am on November 20th, 2008 113
wow more selective perception syndrome i see, there must be another poster with my name posting in a the alternative universe that you must live in. i mean wow.
let me make a few quick corrections, first, I did not use the word think, I used the word know.
canadians dont “think” they are dependant on the US they “know” they are.
is it your contention that liberals were totaly absent from the political process until the last two years?they were only half of the process until the last two years, now for the last two years they have been running the show, and frankly i think things were quite a bit better 3 years ago than they are now. you a wrong to think i said it was all the liberals fault many republicans are just as culpable, and those that are not are guilty by inaction.
i would defy you to find in my posts where i stated that the bush administration was all good.i’m not sure why i would make that claim since it is not how i feel. I simply do not disagree with our presence in the middleeast and i hope we stay until the threat from radical islamists is a thing of the past, and the people of the region, All the people of the region, can live without fear for there religious choices or political views. wouldnt that be a nice gift to give them. im not defending every tactical decision made or every statement that has come from the administration concerning the war. not by a longshot. and your immediate jump to that conclusion, that i am a blind follower of the evil regime, really reflects your hard line stance on this issue. your words may claim openmindedness but comments like those show otherwise.
i will not apologize for my belief that are men and women are on a righteous mission. I will not defend Bush nor Condemn bush on issues of speculation.
perhaps these countries that we are, in your opinion, falling so far behind in international goodwill, of which i assume your own is one, would like to help the US care for the 20 million plus illegal non tax paying “citizens” that are in the country right now. and we are not just talking about a couple handfuls of rice here. we are talking about employment, schooling, and health care. No? i didnt think so.
you make poor excuses for why your own facts don’t stand (the ones I present you), and you offer only one liner attack comments on superficial grounds with the usual rhetoric.
example please? my facts stand fine,
and i would like to see the dictionary definition of “projectionistic”. good luck
i understand what you are trying to say, i would just like to see a dictionary definition, easier for my narrow mind to understand.
I did not say that the us was the only country in ww11
you are quite adept at missquoting. in this instance i will respond to your insinuation No i do not think the USA was the only country fighting ww11, but i do know that the world was losing until we did enter the war.
people killing people in war is not a 20th century invention. undoubtedly much fighting was symbolic much as we have symbolic fighting in our sporting events in our times, but when it came to resources, slavery and land, people wared to the death it is a naive utopian view to believe otherwise, i dont doubt that you had a college professor at some point in time, who was undoubtedly a fervent anti-war liberal, theorize that
that the ancient ones were far more civilized than our corrupt immoral capitalist society, and that they only
battled symbolicaly because of their oneness with the universe, unfortunately for you, he was wrong.
I am not a condecending person, but I gotta ask… what are you Vego? a goat? I thought you were just a vegan who didn’t know the ‘rules’- vegans don’t eat fish, or sheep, or eggs, or milk, or cheese or….
readily admit i have no idea what point you are trying to make here and i really dont care.
you may not think you are condescending, but you are. very. smug and arrogent braggert as well. worse is i’m positive that you know you are. just more liberal denial, regardless, the original lie poisons the entire thought process.
i know that i can be a smug, arrogent, condescending a-hole. I admit it. i dont sugar coat it with the long winded flowery prose that some try to pass off as intillectualism.
you better hope no other Canadians hear you say you *think* we are dependant on the US. Not all Canadians are as nice as I am.
now this was humorous and really reveals the true intillect we are dealing with here. what is this?
a threat?
will the collective canada come and beat me up?
i have lived in border states my entire life and trust me i dont fear what canadians think of my opinions.
should they try and attack me, i will just hold up a
“duty free Wal-Mart” sign up with an arrow pointing left
and the old habits would kick in and they would all follow each other off the cliff.
my qualifications for my opinions?
open eyes
give it a try
2:15 am on November 20th, 2008 114
STELLARSOUTH: To have your avitar/gravitar accompanying your posts, click HERE
2:44 am on November 20th, 2008 115
If we put the executives that run the companies that hire illegals in prison I bet less of them would show up, but with GOP econimics, our pay will drop to the point where they won’t want to come here anyway.
3:25 am on November 20th, 2008 116
not desperate at all jerry, just thought i would play your game for awhile.
I said obama was mobilizing the uninformed and ignorant and the ziegler documentary supported my opinion. some were white, some were black, some were old, some were young. all ignorant,all uninformed, all voting for obama. at no point did i say anything about race. your next post made the same claim for the republicans to which to an extent you are correct, obviously there are uninformed republicans my contention was that more democrats voted uninformed than republicans, which was exactly what ziegler contended and has offered to pay for the survey from that same polling company that would prove otherwise, or even duplicate the numbers. as a far as i know no one has taken him up on it.
fandb was kind enough to post the survey results on post 70. again nothing in the survey spoke of racism. a black female employee of ziegler was in charge of finding voters who would participate in the survey and the participants were as i stated, a not unreasonable cross section of race age and gender.also as i said,uninformed. my contention at this point would be that if you vote uninformed then you are ignorant, regardless of color.
at this point you trotted out a u tube link that i guessed(because i didnt bother to watch)was a tape of some stupid bigoted hillbilly shouting racial slurs at obama. correct?
that was the first point at which racism was brought into the conversation.
at this point, although it was extremely lame for you to pull out this truly ignorant bigot(again a guess)
i suggested middle ground by saying that maybe the white bigots were offset by black bigots,(you do accept that a black person can be bigoted as well as a white person i would presume?) that then left alot of uninformed hence ignorant PEOPLE left to vote for obama.
i did not say black people or red people or yellow people. I said people. ignorent uninformed PEOPLE. at this point in my minds eye i was thinking of this completely ignorant young white female on zieglers documentary who knew absolutely nothing about barack obama, who was in congress who was in control of congress, or basically anything else about the political proscess but she “knew” sarah palin spent 150,000 on clothes(a lie) and she “knew” sarah palin could see russia from her house. totally ridiculous, you can thank your pal olberman for polluting the electorate in such a way.
your next statement was this
vegofish…I see why you said folks called you a racist and a bigot in one of your previous comments. If one was black and voted for Obama then they were ignorant and a Bigot…k got it now…thanks for educating the rest of the masses on your self righteousness…I know it must be tough having such right wing Superior intelligence. Your equation of how many “left over” black bigots for obama.
and giardia wonder’s why i was maybe a little pissed off?
where the hell did you get that statement out of what i said?
selective perception syndrome
get help
3:48 am on November 20th, 2008 117
total agreement on illegals issue prison for people that hire them..en masse anyway, and steep fines for lesser offenders, your only problem is what everyone of you has accused me unfairly i might add that your blaming the gop for this situation I think you know that it is way more complicated than that and that democrats are just as culpable. we cant truly work on the problems if were not willing to admit who caused them. I just got done agreeing that republicans share in culpability. i had never stated they weren’t responsible, although posters here have accused me erroneously of saying that, i haven’t. of course I believe more blame lies with the liberals, but the republicans are not blameless.
10:22 am on November 20th, 2008 118
vegofish your still at this non-sense you said these exact words yesterday that you got hammered on:
“and of course i was called a racist and a bigot among other things. i just saw that obama was mobilizing the uninformed the ignorant and, the worst, the underinformed overeducated idealistic.(ie young college students) they knew nothing about the candidates ability to govern but man he is cool.”
The above was a stupid statement all together and mentioned 1 race, not white/black/young and old….but you chose to keep defending it this morning by saying you said something all together different which is the following:
“I said obama was mobilizing the uninformed and ignorant and the ziegler documentary supported my opinion. some were white, some were black, some were old, some were young. all ignorant,all uninformed, all voting for obama. at no point did i say anything about race.”
You really must’ve thought about this overnight, slept on it and try to clear it up this morning.
Next time, just be mature about it and say…”Let me clarify what I meant” versus spending all day digging a ditch trying to defend an ignorant comment and expect us to think you said something other than what you actually said yesterday. Those are 2 completely different above statements and again, I can understand why folks thought you were being a racist and a bigot. You brought those statements into play and I was just explaining that I understood why.
Don’t bring the terms racist and bigot and attach a specific race and not expect the possibility of a response. Furthermore, don’t think that folks can’t read a thread and see EXACTLY what you said word for word and then act like your playing my game. Stay pissed while your at it. This is a blog where we don’t take ourselves too seriously.
Again,
sounds really good…I’m excited and truly hope that the GOP will not change their line of thinking and will probably loose in 2012; if this is the way the GOP (far right) continues to think and take action by blaming everyone else . The intelligent thing to do is have a strong organized GOP campaign, with a strong GOP Presidential ticket and stop pointing fingers at everyone else outside your party…heck while your at it, try to reclaim all those republicans that left your party to vote for Obama or Ron Paul etc…
Clean your own house. You’ve got 4 years to do it.
10:47 am on November 20th, 2008 119
vegofish
4:16 pm on November 19th, 2008 84
just for the sake of middle ground lets say the white bigots cancel out the black bigots. that leaves a lot of ignorant people left for obama to mobilize.
That’s the statement I meant that I was looking for…still early over here. ” a lot of ignorant (black) people”…might as well have added the word in quotes…we’re not that stupid.
11:55 am on November 20th, 2008 120
selective perception syndrome. you read that into the statement, because that is what you want to believe it says. simple as that. i consider that to be just as bigoted as your hillbilly friend. selective perception syndrome is a big part of the problems we face today.
if you refuse to read or hear what people say and interpret it to fit your skewed views of reality, then it is impossible to fix the problems.all you have done is support my premise, alot of ignorant people voted for obama. just as a side note my native american wife and children would probably not agree with your perception of me or my views either. really ridiculous jerry, lets leave wrong headed assumptions out of the debate and then maybe we can move forward.
11:58 am on November 20th, 2008 121
Veg-Obviously both sides are culpable. These are politicians we’re talking about here and it takes a team effort to f#ck things up as monumentally as they have. Being as the righties held the majority of the power for most of the last two generations they inherently receive most of the responsibility for this calamity which we are just entering, and which I anticipate will be much worse than most people realize. That is fair. I’m not so sure that it’s fair that the only thing to replace them is the Democratic Party, because they suck too, they just suck a hell of a lot less than the Republicans at this point in history. I disagreed with most of Reagan’s policies and believe that this crisis is, frankly, a direct result of some of them, however, while he was governing, I realized that he was a great leader, and that that was what the nation needed at the time. I believe he took us down the wrong road, but we arrived somewhere more united than divided, unlike this recent President who divided the nation then drove it off a cliff. We are in a similar situation now, and Obama will be a uniter and a great leader. He will enact policies that solve many problems, and that will create others, but hopefully, the majority of Americans will be behind him because doing nothing in a bitter divided gridlock is no longer an option.
Have a good day everyone. Peace.
12:01 pm on November 20th, 2008 122
and, yes jerry, im am now thoroughly convinced that you are just exactly that stupid, thank you for adding the words that you are “making up” in parenthesis so people can see that is your PERCEPTION. your selective perception. Thank you
12:30 pm on November 20th, 2008 123
good morning giardia,
the well thought out realistic response i have been looking for, I knew you could do it(i would plant a smiley avatar here if I had one!) it could not have been put better. along these lines i’ll say this.
i admire obama’s ability to make people happy, he has a calming presence and he makes people feel good. he may be just what the country needs right now, you could be right on that. I also admire his ability to motivate people, and not just the ignorant people, I understand that too. I do not agree with his politics, but i think like your description of reagan he has the chance to be a great leader of people. unfortunately for him I think his biggest hurdles in the way of achieving this our in his own party, barny frank, nancy pelosi, harry ried, and joe biden as well, are not the people that will take this country in the right direction. nor are the hard core republican right, until we break this down to a more personal level and we are willing to replace these clowns and not with the likes of of the norm colemans and al frankens, then i think we will just spin our wheels. I wish i had better answers to our problems, rather than just bitches about individuals,
but as long as these entrenched career criminals, oops i mean politicians remain there we get the same we have always had. the gov’t spending machine grinding our country down to the nub
2:37 pm on November 20th, 2008 124
vegofish…yes…you said that some folks have called you and/or your comments as racist and bigoted AND I’m saying I understand why they do…that’s all. Maybe read the definition of what being a racist and a bigot means before using those words next time when applying it to voters. I’ll post the definitions of what a racist and bigot means on my next comment if you choose to and will break down your statement AGAIN, if you keep pressing forward.
To come to think of it…the GOP must be extremely ignorant for not going after these alleged ignorant voters that have been seeking a voice…not to mention the ignorant youth that have a right to vote just as much.
Welcome to the NFL! It’s a contact sport!
3:20 pm on November 20th, 2008 125
Hey GTL – I think this thread must have set a record for number of replies – I’m sure it’s the longest one I’ve ever seen here
girardia: “Hussein had zero to do with 911″ – How do you know this with such certainty? And where were you on 9/10/01???
Stellar: “look at the developmental state models of Japan, Korea and China” – the problem, as with the U.S. model, is that there always was some intervention. In the case of China and Korea, they came from a position of being extremely over-regulated to where they are now. China’s economy was doing nothing until they started opening free trade zones around Shanghai, Beijing, Dongguan and Hong Kong. And how is Japan’s economy done over the last 15 years or so? They are recovering now from a decade long near-recession, but even now their GDP growth rate is relatively low. In the long term, none of these models are more appealing or successful than the U.S. model.
Back to the U.S. – For example, Chrysler should have been allowed to fail in the ’80s. If it had failed, it is likely, imho, that it would have been replaced by a company or companies that would have broken away from the old Detroit business models and been more innovative and nimble, and quite possibly would be producing the types of cars people will be needing in the next decade. If we bail out the auto companies again, we can expect more of the same from Detroit.
Once the gov’t starts interfering with free enterprise, it has no choice but to continue, or suffer the (short term) consequences. It was not a lack of regulation that led to the current problems with Detroit and the financial system, it was too much regulation and interference over a large number of years. Regulations regarding labor unions, emission requirements, safety issues all the way down to how bright your headlamps have to be and how big a spot of light they put on the road, mileage requirements, etc. have burdened the auto companies into complacency and non-competitiveness. Requirements that financial institutions lend large sums of money (mortgages) to a quota of high-risk borrowers that they knew would not be able to pay them back, all in the name of “fairness.” And banks that didn’t meet their quota of low-income loans could look forward to being sued by the likes of – none other than Barack Obama – funny how he keeps popping up in the middle of so many of these issues.
How fair is it now that people who bought smaller houses and cheaper cars and lived within their means have to bail out the idiots who bought houses and cars they couldn’t afford? Not only that, but most of those idiots are going to get to keep them, and the people bailing them out are still living in their little houses, driving their cheap cars.
And the idiots who bought 350,000 dollar homes while earning $50K a year, no money down, are blaming the banks, saying the BANKS SHOULD NEVER HAVE LOANED US THE MONEY in the first place. It is ridiculous to the point of absurdity.
Picking up on an earlier theme: The critical factors needed to solve these problems in the long run are: Education and Personal Responsibility.
———————————————–
Their have been so many comments over the last couple of days it is hard to keep them all straight. But a few things have come to mind since my last comment…
If Canada’s health care system is such a great model for efficiency and effectiveness, why aren’t people breaking through Canada’s relatively porous border to have access to it? (as they are the U.S. border) Why aren’t U.S. Americans crossing the border into the great white north to get healthcare? (as many Canadians are doing to the U.S.) And, what are a few of the major medical breakthroughs/innovations that have come out of Canada in the last few years?
And lastly, for now (heh), somewhere over the last couple of days, someone was talking about how we need to get rid of all the Washington insiders and replace them with people who have similar experiences to the masses (paraphrased loosely, but I think that was the intent) – that is, to put “the common man” into some of those positions… From my point of view, Sarah Palin more than any other candidate in recent memory, fit that description, but all the left did was bash her relentlessly (and many still are). Why is that?
3:32 pm on November 20th, 2008 126
jerry, i will save you the time, here are the definitons.
bigot:
somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views
racist:
1. based on prejudices and stereotypes related to
race
2. prejudiced against all people who belong to other races
3. somebody who hates others who are not of his or her own race.
I will not respond further to the accusation of racism past this. It is beyond ridiculous. If you knew me, knew where I lived, what I do, who my friends are, I can assure you that you would not make this claim to my face, so stop making it here. You are out of line and I have had enough.
as far as bigotry i have several times demonstrated several times my willingness to agree or accept others points of view. In general i disagree with liberal view points in general and am willing to express my views, but am always willing to agree to disagree in the least. you on the other hand have, as far as i have seen on here, have been totally unwilling to accept anyones views that are not your own. Hence your twisting of statements until they suit your skewed views. you are by definition a bigot.
i will not respond to any further posts from you. I generally ignore the bigoted and dogmatic. you are part of the problem, not a path to the solution.
good day
3:35 pm on November 20th, 2008 127
Springer fan: (1) dude, this is not the NFL. One day you might find the NFL, and if you do, you will know it when it happens. Hint: It isn’t on the internet. (2) “That’s the statement I meant that I was looking for…still early over here. ” a lot of ignorant (black) people”…might as well have added the word in quotes…we’re not that stupid.” – I gotta go with Vego on this one; if you actually need to interpret Vego’s comment as exclusive of non-black people then you are severely selectively interpreting what you are reading. I saw some of the people that were polled and there were very few if any blacks. The most depressingly stupid one of all looked like a twenty-something white girl wearing a shirt with “Obama” hand written across the front.
4:00 pm on November 20th, 2008 128
lmao yep, thats the one, she was the one i was laughing about when i made the statement, crazy isn’t that she should be allowed help decide the direction of the country. there were some black folks interviewed, like i stated earlier it was a reasonable cross section of young and old black and white and male and female, all generally as equally blissfully uninformed or misinformed and in my opinion equally ignorant
uninformed vote equals ignorance, white,black or purple.
4:10 pm on November 20th, 2008 129
I can tell you this, if that bigot(by definition, not opinion) jerry came to where I live, and started in on his angry rant about me being a racist and a bigot towards other races, my ethnic friends and family would happily show him what a contact sport is.
4:47 pm on November 20th, 2008 130
tell you what…next time make don’t use the term Racist and Bigot in the same sentence as ignorant people voting for a candidate.
Again, I can understand why folks took it as if your comments were racist and bigoted.
Furthermore, I do quite well in any neighborhood. You guys may need to take a stroll down the southside of Chicago or watts or the other ethnic neighborhoods and tell them how ignorant they are saying this crap.
Clean your own house. You’ve got 4 years to do it.
I brought up the NFL becuause folks on here have taken up a notch…
One last thing….what is the difference between an intelligent voter and the alleged “ignorant voter” that resonated with John McCain and Obama’s message.
Answer: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Again, sounds really good…I’m excited and truly hope that the GOP will not change their line of thinking and will probably loose in 2012; if this is the way the GOP (far right) continues to think and take action by blaming everyone esle. The intelligent thing to do is have a strong organized GOP campaign, with a strong GOP Presidential ticket and stop pointing fingers at everyone else outside your party…heck while your at it, try to reclaim all those republicans that left your party to vote for Obama or Ron Paul etc…
4:48 pm on November 20th, 2008 131
“make sure and don’t use”
5:04 pm on November 20th, 2008 132
Palin shouldn’t have done that, and the left-wing illuminati and media sucked it up as they would. She should just keep her mouth shut, as Biden has been doing.
5:14 pm on November 20th, 2008 133
GTL, I’m done here, please advise on this particular blog your thoughts on it if any…otherwise, I’ve said what I had to say already on this blog.
Now onto Cheney and South Texas!
5:27 pm on November 20th, 2008 134
girardia: “Hussein had zero to do with 911″ – How do you know this with such certainty? And where were you on 9/10/01???
Husseins people and Bin Ladens people have been at odds with each other for thousands of years. They don’t cooperate. Simple as that. It can’t happen. It’s just as likely that the IRA conspired with the British to attack us. It would have made as much sense to attack Mexico after 911 as Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with it, but ubfortunately there are a lot of bigots (there’s that word again) and low information voters in this country who just lump the people of this region into one big category, and assume that they cooperate against us. They don’t. They hate each other more than they hate us.
As far as these idiots who bought houses they couldn’t afford, I’m at least partially with you there, F&B, but you have to admit, neither side is being totally honest in this debate. People who accepted loans for houses they couldn’t afford are partly to blame, but deregulation in the financial industry which fostered an environment where lenderes were able to push people into loans they couldn’t afford, profit immensely from the series of transactions involved, and then bundle the mortgage with other debts and sell the whole thing off without having to worry as to whether the recipients of the loan were able to make their payments or not is also a key element to this entire fiasco. Admit it.
5:38 pm on November 20th, 2008 135
when the democrats have attempted to regulate the this sector of the economy the republicans scream “free market”
when the republicans try to regulate this sector of the economy the democrats scream “discrimination”
who is right and who is wrong?
i have to say that i think the people hold most of the blame, without a bit of personal responsibility niether system will work.
11:47 pm on November 20th, 2008 136
G — Heh… it’s close! I believe we had one a few months back with over 250 blog posts/responses. I love it, bro!
11:57 pm on November 20th, 2008 137
Jerry — heh… I’m withya, bro. Onto the next topic, I say